People Archives - IESE Standout

Aya Sakai, aiming to break Japan’s glass ceiling. Success Stories

IESE Standout — Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:02:12 +0000

Aya Sakai is a winner of an IESE Future Female Leaders Award 2024. She is currently on an MBA program at IESE in Barcelona, Spain, having previously worked for the Development Bank of Japan.

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A recent Kyodo News survey revealed that only 13 of Japan’s top 1,600 companies have female CEOs. What’s more, only around 15% of the country’s private-sector executives are women, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Aya Sakai is determined to help change those statistics.

“My mission is to be a leader in the Japanese renewable energy industry, which is a very traditional, male-dominated industry, and by being a leader in that industry, maybe I can change Japanese society a little bit,” says the current IESE MBA student (Class of 2026).

Her decision to do an MBA at IESE was an important step toward accomplishing that mission. “The opportunity to learn leadership skills and to work with teammates from international backgrounds in an intense environment will really help me when I go back to Japan,” she says.

A focus on renewables

Before embarking on an MBA, Sakai worked for the Development Bank of Japan (DBJ) in Tokyo and in London. One aspect of this organization that she valued highly was that it pursued not only profit but also social impact; that part of its mission was to support and help its customers.

As is common in many Japanese companies, Sakai gained valuable experience in many different departments and sections, from financial analysis to human resources, which was quite a challenge for her, having to quickly get up to speed in new fields every one or two years.

This employment policy did, however, give her the opportunity to work in the renewable energy sector, leading her to the conclusion that it was what she wanted to focus on in the future.

Much of the innovation in the renewable energy sector is being developed in Europe, another factor that attracted Sakai to studying in Barcelona. She wants to learn more about green energy technologies in Europe that can help change the energy landscape in Japan.

Teamwork and leadership

While at IESE, Sakai is also getting used to working with people from a wide variety of different backgrounds and cultures, something she has not had to do before. In her team there are students from Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Germany, Kenya, Saudi Arabia, Spain and the U.S., in addition to classmates from Japan, all with different management methods and communication styles, which naturally presents certain challenges.

For Sakai, the solution to those challenges is respect, both for people and for processes. “Individually we each have strengths and weaknesses, and we can all learn from each other,” she says. “And we have strict team rules, a contract that nobody breaks, and that helps us work together effectively in a comfortable manner.”

As an undergraduate, Sakai was a trainer for an American football team, where she enjoyed working for and with other people and achieving good things as part of a great team. And great teams need great leaders.

In her time working in different departments at the DBJ, Sakai had many different bosses. The best leaders, in her opinion, were “insightful, considerate, visionary and hardworking.” Bravery and having the courage to be disruptive are also values that she thinks are important. “A woman who dared to take the challenge of being the first female director in our company is someone I really respect,” she says.

A role model

As the winner of an IESE Future Female Leaders Award 2024, Sakai sees herself as being “a role model for younger female generations” in Japan. “In an environment where there are few female leaders or few female managers, women may feel a little uncomfortable. I want to show them that you can do it. Hopefully, my achievements and the good that I do will encourage and empower some people,” she says.

An achievement from her professional career up until now was, while working for the HR department at the DBJ, managing to increase the number of female applicants for certain roles that had been traditionally carried out by men. “Establishing a good work-life balance can be difficult in Japanese companies; maybe that’s one reason why there are so few female leaders,” she explains.

Less successful was her attempt to introduce reforms so that more men occupied positions that were seen as jobs for women. But that was a useful learning experience about how to manage change.

Looking to the future

Sakai is driven by a desire to “do good things for society,” especially in renewable energy. She envisions a future where the widespread use of clean energy technologies, some yet to emerge, will help achieve net-zero emissions, allowing people to enjoy the benefits of energy without harming the environment.

Sakai’s journey is set to be one of breaking barriers and inspiring change in a traditionally male-dominated society. Her experiences at the DBJ, her commitment to the renewable energy sector and the leadership skills she hopes to perfect at IESE reflect a powerful ambition not only to rise as a leader but to pave the way for future generations of women in Japan.

As she works to challenge the status quo, she embodies a new wave of leadership that is insightful, courageous and inclusive. Her example underscores the importance of diversity in driving industrial and societal change.

Are you a young professional woman with big accomplishments and even bigger goals? Apply to the next IESE Future Female Leaders Award. IESE will select a small number of young professional women who embody IESE’s mission, are focused on developing their careers and on making a positive impact in the world. The next IESE Future Female Leaders Award will take place on Jan. 28-30, 2025, on IESE’s Barcelona campus, coinciding with the Women in Business Conference.

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Enrique Linares. Nobody prepares you for what comes next. Success Stories

IESE Standout — Thu, 12 Sep 2024 09:03:34 +0000

Founding partner of Plus Partners and prior to that, Letgo. Named 40under40, the IESE award recognizing top entrepreneurs. IESE MBA 2006.

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At 43, Enrique Linares had achieved every entrepreneur’s dream: he had launched a startup, which became a market leader and reached unicorn status. But after its sale, he faced a daunting question: what next?

Enrique Linares’ entrepreneurial success came sooner than he imagined. After a brief foray into fintech in Latin America, this Spanish lawyer-turned-entrepreneur joined forces with two business partners, Alec Oxenford and Jordi Castello, to found Letgo in 2015. This mobile app was an online marketplace to buy and sell secondhand goods. Initially offered for free, it quickly amassed millions of downloads. And within 502 days, the startup reached an astonishing valuation of $1 billion, earning unicorn status, so named because of the rarity of the achievement.

Undoubtedly, one of the keys to Letgo’s success was its global strategy from the start. “Letgo was born international,” Linares explains. The founders lived and worked in different cities around the world — Linares in São Paulo, Oxenford in Buenos Aires and Castello in Singapore — which facilitated them entering multiple markets simultaneously. Linares recommends this approach, especially for B2C internet-based business models, emphasizing the strategic value of doing so for faster, expansive growth.

Along the way, Letgo merged with Wallapop, and in 2020 was acquired by a U.S. competitor, OfferUp, marking the end of a thrilling ride.

For Linares, however, his primary challenge in 2020 wasn’t just navigating the COVID-19 pandemic back in Spain, but grappling with a profound personal and professional shift. “Something that frequently happens with entrepreneurs is that they get so caught up with their company that it becomes their whole identity. This thing to which you devote so much of your energy and dedicate so many hours can end up becoming pernicious,” he warns.

He was experiencing this himself. He had reached the highest of heights and was financially set, yet he felt bewildered and empty inside. “Everyone talks about how to sell your business,” he says, “but no one ever tells you what happens the day after the sale. Nobody prepares you for what comes next.”

Finding a new purpose

According to Linares, people commonly respond to such times of transition in one of two ways. They either immediately dive into new ventures, constantly seeking to replicate their past success in new emerging businesses, as serial entrepreneurs. Or they embark on a long period of reflection to discover a new purpose in life. He chose the latter.

He started trying new things that would take him out of his comfort zone, stretching him personally and professionally, but without demanding full-time commitment, given that he still wasn’t entirely clear about what he really wanted to do. He jokingly refers to this as his “casual dating” period.

He taught some classes, did some mentoring, invested in other startups with development potential, and served as an independent adviser. He also took advantage of this time to expand his network of contacts, listening to those who had gone through a similar experience and could offer their perspectives.

It was then that he realized what he most liked doing was sharing experiences with other entrepreneurs. One day, he got up, fueled by a newfound energy and eager to get started again. He decided to set up a professionalized version of what he had been doing all along: mentoring, investing and consulting. In 2024, Plus Partners was born.

Investing in others

Plus Partners is a venture capital (VC) fund focused on early-stage startups. Linares launched it with a friend, Oriol Juncosa, another prominent figure in the Spanish startup scene scene (both pictured). They seek to raise 40 million euros to support entrepreneurs in Southern Europe in three key sectors — health and nutrition, finance and property, and work productivity — where artificial intelligence (AI) and big data are already playing crucial roles in innovation.

This new venture allows Linares to combine his personal and professional passions. “It involves entrepreneurship, but isn’t about me being an entrepreneur in another startup,” he explains. “But I’m still following my calling, using everything I’ve learned about entrepreneurship to help others.”

As implied by its name, Plus Partners will add more than capital as they hold entrepreneurs’ hands, actively supporting them in navigating the complicated early stages of a startup, from business development and seed funding to strategies for growth. “We’re the partners that I wish I’d had during my own startup journey,” he says.

All the time and energy Linares dedicated to finding his path eventually illuminated the way: “It took me a while to see it,” he admits.

What he’s most proud of is not taking the easy path. “In thinking about next steps, it was coming to the realization and accepting that I’m not capable of putting in the same number of intense hours that I did in my 20s and 30s. Now, there are other, better ways that I can add the most value to companies, teams and communities. As our professional journeys evolve, so must our thinking on how we can contribute best.”

LISTEN: Enrique Linares discusses his journey in the podcast, “Éxito internacional y reinvención personal” (“International success and personal reinvention”), part of the Talent Pills series.

Find out more about IESE’s ecosystem for entrepreneurship, innovation and new ventures, including the 40under40 awards, and subscribe to the Entrepreneurship & Innovation Center newsletter here.

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Everything revolves around people. Camila Escalante. Success stories

IESE Standout — Fri, 26 Apr 2024 14:38:04 +0000

Recipient of the Forté Fellowship, for women exhibiting exemplary leadership, and an IESE Excellence Scholarship, for outstanding achievement, personal merit and strong fit with IESE’s values. IESE MBA 2025.

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The first woman in her family to pursue an MBA, Camila Escalante follows in her family’s entrepreneurial footsteps, aspiring to lead the sustainable growth and internationalization of her Peruvian family business.

Six years before she was born, Camila Escalante’s mother, Luciana D’Angelo, launched her own dairy business, Delice, in 1990. Today, the company has more than 150 employees and is Peru’s leading maker and exporter of cream cheese products.

Although she grew up with the family business, Escalante had a different career in mind for herself in corporate finance. “Delice was a small, artisanal company, managed in a very traditional way. I didn’t see myself going down that path,” she says.

After graduating with a degree in economics from the University of the Pacific in Lima, she began working at Ataria, a venture capital firm for early-stage startups in Peru. With a management team of just five people — two of which were women — Escalante got her first taste of the world of venture capital.

Triple tsunami

This continued until the pandemic hit in 2020. It was a period she describes as a “triple tsunami.”

Alongside the personal restrictions imposed by COVID-19 lockdowns, Escalante’s family business had to deal with operational and supply-chain difficulties. As if that weren’t enough, Peru went through a period of political and social turmoil, further complicating the collection and distribution of the fresh milk on which Delice’s entire business depended.

Given that her mother had always been her role model for hard work and resilience, Escalante was quick to lend a hand. She got involved in the purchasing side of things, managing the daily procurement of some 50,000 liters of fresh milk to supply their production line.

“That’s when I truly understood how all the different areas of a business relate to each other,” she says. “I had studied economics and was very good with numbers and finance, but until then I had never seen a business operate in real life.”

Today, she can proudly say that she has contributed to Delice’s transformation and growth. She adapted the recipes to be healthier (lower sodium, sugar and fat) and more sustainable (eliminating GMO ingredients). The new cream cheese recipe will reduce costs by an estimated 7%. In addition, she implemented a variable compensation scheme to boost employee motivation and give team members a greater sense of ownership and commitment.

It was this defining experience at Delice that made her decide to go and get an MBA to broaden her management skills and acquire a global perspective on business operations. She now sees her professional future linked to Delice in some way.

Credit: Roger Rovira

An unprecedented opportunity

In choosing between a U.S. or European business school, what eventually sold her on the latter was Europe’s cultural and national diversity. In terms of IESE specifically, “it helped that it has a significant community of Latin American students.” As such, Escalante sees promising opportunities for building a strong network across Latin America, helping to expand and consolidate Delice’s market presence in the region. IESE’s focus on people clinched her choice: “It’s something you can feel in the atmosphere,” she says.

Escalante feels fortunate and grateful to be a scholarship recipient of the IESE International Foundation. As the first woman in her family to pursue an MBA, she feels “immense joy and pride to represent both my country, Peru, and the aspirations of first-generation MBA students like me at IESE.”

She describes her experience on the Barcelona campus as an endless stream of stimulation, and she transfers her learnings to Delice through regular online meetings with the company back home.

She has wasted no time in getting involved in various student-run organizations — from the Women in Business Club to the Family Business Club (naturally) but also the Mental Health and Wellbeing Club, helping others thrive amid the stresses of life (the subject of her undergraduate thesis was the effect of the mother’s mental health on children’s emotional and cognitive development). She also finds time to visit supplier factories and attend trade fairs related to her sector.

Growth rooted in a social mission

Since 2020, Delice has tripled its sales, expanded its product lines, and added Colombia as another export market on top of its established presence in Chile. Delice’s commitment to sustainability involves advancing the use of eco-friendly and mono-material packaging that facilitates recycling, and establishing long-term business relationships with suppliers: “When we grow, they grow with us,” she says.

Escalante is determined to take the family business to another level: “In helping to make the company grow, I want us to consider how each step we take will affect others: the community, the workers, the consumers and other stakeholders. In the end, everything revolves around people.”

Contribute to the IESE Scholarship Fund and help forge a global pipeline of leaders who aspire to make a positive and long-lasting impact on the organizations and communities they serve.

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Supporting companies going green. Hiroshi Tomita. Success stories

IESE Standout — Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:01:47 +0000

Hiroshi Tomita (IESE MBA ’95) is a Consulting Partner of Corporate Sustainability & Climate Change at Environmental Resources Management (ERM).

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We’re at an inflection point to achieve Net Zero emissions goals by 2050. How are we doing? Are there reasons to be optimistic or pessimistic? Both, says Hiroshi Tomita. On the one hand, “we’re seeing attacks, criticisms and negative movements against climate action,” he says. On the other hand, “I look back to when I started working on climate change issues and energy market reforms in the ’90s, and nobody ever thought those would become private sector led like they are now. And that makes me feel optimistic.”

As a bicultural executive, Tomita is used to holding two realities together at the same time. He grew up in Brazil, where his father’s job for a Japanese shipping company took them to live. “Actually the first language I started to speak was Portuguese, and I really only started to speak Japanese after we moved back to Japan. So a deep part of my character is this mixture of Brazil and Japan.”

This embedded in him a keen interest in Latin America. So, after Tomita graduated with a degree in international law from Waseda University in Tokyo in 1990, Latin America became the natural focus of the risk reports he wrote for his first employer, the Nomura Research Institute (NRI). At the time, Latin America was undergoing an economic transition, with Brazil (along with Russia, India and China) soon to form the BRIC grouping of up-and-coming markets.

It was in the midst of these transition years that Tomita decided to pursue an MBA at IESE. “Most people were going to the U.S. to study but, because of my Latin American focus, I was determined to go to Portugal or Spain.” He had to convince his employer though, as there was little precedent for a Japanese student going to a non-English-speaking country to do an MBA. Luckily, NRI supported his application and he was accepted at IESE. He was one of only five Japanese students, among very few students from Asia, although he recalls a diverse student body from Latin America and other countries in Europe, besides Spain, which enriched his learning experience and prepared him for the multicultural, globalized business world he was about to enter. “Here you can exchange ideas with people from many backgrounds while developing invaluable assets for the future,” he wrote in the school magazine.

An idea whose time had come

This exposure to diverse ideas, combined with “the diversity I have within myself,” served him well when he began working in Washington, D.C., for the Inter-American Development Bank, which provides financing for sustainable infrastructure development in Latin America. After that, he spent a decade working on climate financing, including carbon credits, for the Japan Bank for International Cooperation, Fortis Bank and BNP Paribas, again focusing on the two regions he knows best: Asia-Pacific and Latin America. Then, he spent another decade working for PwC Advisory, formulating market strategies for Japanese firms looking to invest in energy and infrastructure projects overseas.

“At first it was my Latin American experience that opened doors,” he says. But once the 1997 Kyoto Protocol (the world’s first emissions reduction treaty) came into effect in 2005, Japanese financial institutions shifted their focus to emission reduction projects and sustainability. And Brazil — being a BRIC economy, as well as the site of the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro (where the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change was first adopted) — became the natural place to invest. “And then the market really started to move.”

“It seemed like everything I had been doing related to energy technology or energy transformation had prepared me for this moment, and I jumped into it.”

It’s when Tomita looks at the sweep of history that he feels hopeful. “Seeing the private sector shifting to renewable energy and biofuels is when I’m most optimistic, together with the increasing adoption of environmental, social and governance (ESG) criteria, which the business world wasn’t seriously trying to evaluate 10 years ago. I feel confident about what we can achieve in the long run.”

CREDIT: Jan Buus

Looking back to look forward

Regarding progress on ESG, a recent study by IESE professors Gaizka Ormazabal and Igor Kadach found that 38% of companies globally (60% in the EU) now tie executive pay to ESG goals. This is partly the result of growing alignment on the issue among institutional investors. In companies with ESG-linked compensation, there is evidence carbon emissions are going down (although there do not appear to be short-term financial gains from them doing so).

On this point, Tomita feels ESG is not a straightforward cost-benefit analysis but rather, in Japan at least, an imperative for energy security and to diversify over the long term, so as not to be reliant on one energy source. “Japan started moving in this direction 30 years ago,” he says. “Transforming energy is not something that happens from one day to the next.”

What would he say to a skeptical oil or gas company dragging its feet? “I would say your business needs to be diversified. Maybe not a 100% transformation overnight but you need to start doing something. You need to make an economic calculation for the future. And in making that calculation, you have to remember that renewable energy wasn’t profitable 15 years ago but look at what has happened and where we are today. These were not easy decisions 30 years ago, but we are now sitting in a place where, thanks to those hard decisions, we are seeing transformation.”

Tomita believes these are messages people are more receptive to now, post-pandemic and since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. People appreciate the benefits of diversification as they have experienced firsthand what happens when we put all our eggs in one basket: the risks are all too real.

What gets measured gets managed

Tomita credits diversification as one of the reasons Japan managed to get through the 2011 earthquake and tsunami that took out the Fukushima power plant. Another recent study by IESE professor Pietro Bonetti et al. found that, although the cost of capital went up for all Japanese firms after that environmental disaster, it went up less for firms that had made voluntary disclosures of their carbon emissions in prior years. Moreover, firms that subsequently changed their disclosure practices, doing more sustainability reporting, saw reductions in their cost of capital over time. This shows the importance of environmental reporting, especially in the event of an energy shock, for providing valuable information for investors.

“In Japan, there used to be a notion, especially if you were in a heavily polluting industry, that disclosing too much might have negative business effects. But as I tell my clients, it’s not reporting that has the negative effects. Even with a coal-fired plant, when they started disclosing what they were doing, that had a positive effect. I remember I once took a Brazilian delegation on a tour of a Japanese coal-fired plant and they were surprised there was no dust — it was as clean as a hospital. The people living just beside the coal-fired plant were hanging their laundry outside in the garden as there was no dust, not even in the surrounding area. Of course, the fact they have the coal-fired plant is still something they need to change. However, until you start measuring it and reporting on it with reliable metrics, then improvements or progress won’t be made.”

Best practices in disclosure and corporate decarbonization and climate change are part of what Tomita’s new employer, ERM, provides to business clients as a consultancy focused exclusively on sustainability. “Sustainability is our business in ERM. In this stage of my career, I really want to support companies in the greening of power and the introduction of renewables and new energies such as hydrogen and biofuels.”

Oil and gas companies, in particular, need a roadmap to transform themselves. “They need to understand the risks and the global frameworks that exist, such as carbon credits and carbon markets, to achieve Net Zero goals, which not everyone fully understands.”

One group who does seem to grasp that sustainability is the way ahead for business is the new generation of future business leaders coming through. “Young people have a big interest in sustainability and the idea of business as a force for good,” Tomita finds.

And there’s no standard profile, as Tomita’s own career path attests. With the rise of sustainability financing and big capital pouring into climate projects, a background in banking can be helpful, as could “someone who has been working in a coal-fired plant for 10 years — we need people who understand energy. People with a background in engineering. Or trade.”

In other words, we need diverse profiles able to tackle the climate challenge from multiple angles and “contribute to the development of this exciting new market we are experiencing.” And that’s a reason for optimism.

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Starting a career with optimism and enthusiasm. Junior Kone. Success stories

IESE Standout — Wed, 20 Dec 2023 14:17:23 +0000

Junior Kone is currently studying for a Master in Management at IESE in Madrid and hopes to start a career in management consultancy.

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It is a challenging time for graduates starting out in the world of work with aspirations to senior management. The uncertainty caused by the global political and macroeconomic situation means companies are reluctant to make decisions about investments in people, making it difficult for individuals to get on the first rung of their career ladder. What’s more, this was perhaps the cohort whose education and development were most affected by the Covid-19 pandemic, and they are still suffering the consequences.

Despite these formidable obstacles, Junior Kone, 23, currently studying for a Master in Management (MiM) at IESE in Madrid, remains resolutely optimistic about the future. Embracing an unwavering belief in the cyclical nature of economic downturns, he confidently asserts, “Usually after these very bad moments, the economy starts growing, so opportunities will come.” His enthusiasm is infectious and inspiring.

Embracing change

He is especially excited about the potential offered by the current technological environment, especially artificial intelligence (AI). As he observes, “A lot of things will be substituted by AI. But this also means that new job opportunities will open up. This is how it works; things have always worked like that.” He is, however, well aware of the possible threats and pitfalls of this new technology. “We have to use AI as a support for decision making and not as a substitute for people taking decisions: we have to be the responsible ones,” he warns.

As, hopefully, one of those people taking those decisions in the future, Kone is clear what kind of values will be necessary, as they are now. Above all, he believes, leaders need to have a mission that goes beyond motivation based on money or power or prestige: “It’s taking responsibility, trying to do something that can be beneficial for the community, whether that’s local or global.”

Kone also says that leaders need to be flexible, to be able to adapt to different circumstances, to integrate into different environments. His multicultural upbringing and diverse academic trajectory underscore his adaptability and resilience. Born in the Ivory Coast to an African father and Colombian mother, his family’s journey took them from Africa to Italy, where Kone spent his formative years. His academic pursuits led him to Reims in France for part of his undergraduate degree and a work placement in Brussels, Belgium, before his current studies in Madrid, Spain.

The importance of mentorship and networking

At this early stage in his career, Kone is very clear about the need for mentors and role models. His parents, entrepreneurs who have navigated various ventures, serve as his primary sources of inspiration, instilling in him a deep appreciation for adaptability and tenacity. Reflecting on their experience in the movie industry – distributing African content throughout Europe – he admires their ability to pivot when the internet reshaped their business landscape. His father’s belief, “If you don’t have a job, just create it,” echoes as a guiding principle in Kone’s worldview, one that he believes comes from the African entrepreneurial spirit.

As a way of expanding his contacts, Kone is a member of two organizations aimed at helping young talent get ahead. Mentors4U is a mentorship program that connects students at Italian universities with experienced professionals. “When I joined my mentor was working in in a leading consultancy in Italy. He guided me through my career path, trying to understand if consulting was the right choice for me.” The experience of these mentors is invaluable, he believes: “Trying to understand your career plan and giving insights from their past experience because they’ve been through all the things that you’re going through right now.” The other organization he belongs to is Nova, a platform that has the ambitious aim of connecting the top 3% of the world’s talent. Every Wednesday Kone has a meeting with someone from around the world. Just talking to people and learning from them is something that he finds very helpful.

The spirit of entrepreneurship

Once he has completed his MIM, Kone aims to be a consultant in a top consulting firm. In the longer run, Kone’s main objective is to become a CEO. The alternative is starting his own company. And he has a bit of entrepreneurial experience, as he describes: “I remember when I was 15 or 16, one summer I was supposed to be studying for a French test and I had to learn the verbs, but I didn’t want to do it, so I decided to create a little app for my mobile that could be like a game where I could learn the verbs as a game. The problem is that I spent the whole summer doing that…! But when I finished, I decided to sell it to my classmates, and I made a little bit of money.”

Kone embodies a mixture of optimism, adaptability, and resilience, backed up by a clear set of values. His journey symbolizes the fusion of diverse cultural influences and a steadfast determination to forge a career path that has a global impact but that gives something back to society.

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How to fail right. With Professors Sandra Sieber and Sebastian Reiche (Podcast)

IESE Standout — Tue, 19 Dec 2023 13:54:33 +0000

In this special episode, we look back at some of the most human stories and the hardest truths from series one of This is Real Leadership.

From how you ask a co-founder to leave, to one reason Steve Jobs was so successful, we’ve been finding out what real leadership looks like today. And it’s all here – the wow-yeah and the heck-no.

Looking back across our previous seven episodes are two distinguished commentators. Sandra Sieber is Professor of Entrepreneurship at IESE Business School, one of the world’s best business schools. Sebastian Reiche is Professor of Managing People in Organisations at IESE Business School. IESE was ranked No.1 in the world for six years running by the Financial Times.

This is Real leadership podcast: Every episode, a business leader shares human stories and hard truths from their career. And an expert turns those stories into lessons we can all learn.

In this episode, Sandra and Sebastian discuss:

How to fail right.
Is leadership as easy as pie? Or Pi?
How to tell better stories and build stronger business cultures
What really is real leadership today?

Listen to this podcast:

Fore more content like this visit the Real Leadership website.

Podcast transcription:

Featuring quotes from:

Ep.1: 3 mistakes that made me a better leader. With Elena Betés
Ep.2: The narrative, the collaborative… And the ugly
Ep.3: Culture clashes and difficult decisions
Ep.4: How to bring your authentic self to work
Ep.5: Leading with joy (not fear). Productive magic
Ep.6: Trust and productivity in a happy workplace
Ep.7: How to make change happen

Ibukun Awosika – Former Chair, First Bank of Nigeria. NED, Cadbury Plc. One of the original dragons on the African version of Dragon’s Den, author, fellow of the African Leadership Initiative and Aspen Global Leadership Network, and Forbes “Chairperson of the Year” award winner 2020.

Geoffrey Moore – Advisor to the leaders of established high-tech enterprises. Most recently: Salesforce, Microsoft, and Google. And the author of several best-selling and hugely influential business books. Most notably: Crossing The Chasm.

Elena Betés Novoa – Founder and CEO (2008-15) and Chair (2015-22), Rastreator. CEO, dide.org. Serial entrepreneur. Winner of the International Women’s Entrepreneurial Challenge award in 2022. Forbes “Top 100 Most Creative”.

JJ Van Oosten – A serial digital transformationist, JJ has lead five large, complex and successful digital and omnichannel transformations at Rewe Group, Tesco, Travis Perkins, LEGO and Kingfisher.

Christina Janzer – Head of Research and Analytics, Slack. Armed with insights from Slack’s global knowledge worker research – a survey of 10,000 desk workers – Christina says she wants to make work a little better every day.

Arjen Schouten – Co-founder and Former COO cosmetics retailer Rituals, Arjen helped Rituals grow from zero to over 10,000 employees, 1000 stores and $1 billion in turnover.

Florian Weiss – Former CEO, Jameda, one of the largest providers of software for the healthcare industry.

Adam Burns:

Hello, and welcome to This is Real Leadership. Where, every episode, a proven business leader shares human stories and hard truths from across their career. And an expert turns those words into lessons we can all learn.

Well, at least, that’s what normally happens. But not in this episode. This episode, we’re looking back at some of the most human stories and the hardest truths from our previous seven pods. And I’m joined by not one, but two experts. Two distinguished professors from IESE, one of the world’s best business schools.

Professor of Entrepreneurship, Professor Sandra Sieber…

Professor Sandra Sieber

Hello Adam. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Adam Burns:

And Professor of Managing People in Organizations, Professor Sebastian Reiche…

Professor Sebastian Reiche

Hi Adam. It’s very good to talk to you again.

Adam Burns:

Lovely to see you both. And I’m very much looking forward to this. Now, we’ve picked ten quotes from across the series, covering everything from mistakes, to storytelling, to magic. So, let’s get on with it. Let’s find out what you have learned.

From Ep 1 – Growing from mistakes

Elena Betés Novoa

Former SVP of Education, Red Ventures. Founder and CEO (2008-15) and Chair (2015-22), Rastreator. Current CEO, dide.org (2023-).

Quote

I always say that, even when you’re failing, you have to fail right. Okay? And failing right means caring about employees, caring about clients, caring about what you are doing.

Adam Burns

That was Elena Betés Novoa, Founder, CEO and former Chair at Rastreator, and now CEO at dide.org. And that was from episode one, which talked about growing from mistakes. I think this is a fascinating phrase, “you have to fail right”. What does it mean to you?

Professor Sebastian Reiche

Don’t throw away the learning. That’s what Bill Gates always said. You can make mistakes, but just don’t throw away the learning. So, I think what we mean when we say “failing right” is that, first of all, we need to have the right context. One in which people can make mistakes. And then we need to grow from our mistakes; we get it right or do it better the next time around.

Professor Sandra Sieber

I tend to agree with Sebastian here. For me, there’s also the very important issue of understanding what the context is, and what the conditions to fail are. We talk about creating a learning culture, and the possibility to make mistakes, but we only do that under certain conditions. Meaning, when uncertainty is high, when ambiguity is there, when the complexity conditions are there, because that’s when we really need to learn. And sometimes we know things already, and then, failing is simply not okay. We know things, and we have to apply them correctly. And then we get into more of a productivity culture. Right? So, we can’t just say, now we are allowed to fail, and we are allowed to learn, because it’s not true. It’s true under certain conditions. I think we should always remember that, when we want to fail right, it’s really under those conditions where failure is appropriate, because it’s a way to learn.

Adam Burns

On the pod, Elena was talking with IESE’s Professor Iñigo Gallo. He asked, “do we sometimes put too much emphasis on the benefits of making mistakes?” What do you think?

Professor Sebastian Reiche

I remember, for a long time, surgeons really struggled to share mistakes. Because, obviously, if you make a mistake during surgery, the person has to be wheeled back… So, it’s a high stakes environment. You make yourself liable, and yet, if you know what went wrong, you don’t want your colleague to make the same mistake. And so, they started doing this behind locked doors. Nobody else would see it, but the people who could learn from it were in the same room. So, it’s not celebrating mistakes, but, again, coming back to this point, it’s creating the conditions where everyone who can learn from them is there. You’re making yourself securely vulnerable. It’s not fully public. Maybe not everyone sees the mistake, but we’re sharing what needs to be shared so that it doesn’t happen again.

Adam Burns

So, failing right is about making sure you don’t throw away the learning, but it’s not about accepting failure everywhere. Only in situations where there’s ambiguity or complexity, or where we face the unknown. If the learning already exists, well, learn it. And if sharing failures makes you uncomfortable, do as the surgeons did. Find a locked room, and make yourself securely vulnerable.

Our experts are agreed, then. There are times when it’s useful to let people make mistakes. What’s interesting is some of the small nuances that emerged when I asked, “who makes that decision?” Here’s Arjen Schouten, Former COO and Co-Owner at Rituals, from episode three…

From Ep 3 – How to make tough decisions

Arjen Schouten

Co-Chair, ShareAndWonder Foundation. Former COO and Co-Owner, Rituals.

Quote

I think that you need to let your teams come up with their own solutions, and give them the freedom to be brave and implement their ideas, and let them make their own mistakes, as you have made your own mistakes. And that is the hardest thing, because you’re very tempted to say “No, that doesn’t work”. But, don’t be afraid. Let them be vulnerable, and don’t punish them too early for the mistakes they might make. There’s only one thing, one golden rule, which is to not make the same mistake over and over again. Then, you might have an issue.

Adam Burns

Sebastian, as a leader, is it your job to decide when people can make their own mistakes?

Professor Sebastian Reiche

There’s this assumption that, as a leader, you decide whether to let people make a mistake, or solve it yourself. Or rather, the temptation is to solve it. But there are many contexts in which you might actually have someone further down the hierarchy who knows better; who has the expertise, the local influence or the network, or who is better positioned. So, I think the question is also, “at what point can I find the right person?” Earlier, you asked if there are there too many benefits, or if we talk about the benefits of making mistakes too much. Maybe you can avoid the mistake if you find the right person. And maybe that means digging a bit deeper to find where that person is, rather than assuming that, by virtue of your hierarchical position, you should be able to do it. And then, it’s a decision of whether you let people make the mistake or not.

Adam Burns

And, are businesses good at teaching mistakes?

Professor Sandra Sieber

I think they’re better at commanding, rather than teaching. And in a fast-changing environment, what we probably have to do is teach people more. The relevant thing in teaching is actually the learning portion, and that comes after the mistake. So, my role as a manager, as a leader, is then to sit down with my team, or with my people, and do a post-mortem. And say, “Okay, let’s see what happened here. Why did we actually get this wrong?” So, we can allow people to do crazy things, but if we don’t then do a post-mortem afterwards, what are we doing it for?

Adam Burns

And maybe that’s the conundrum at heart of the modern “failure is fine” approach to business. Failure is fine, if you learn from it. But effective learning requires effective teaching, and for many businesses that is not a core competency. Which may help explain why, for a lot of organizations, talking about failure is still seen as a mistake.

That said, of course, mistakes do happen. And when they do, Elena has three super-simple approaches to dealing with them…

From Ep 1 – Growing from mistakes

Elena Betés Novoa

Former SVP of Education, Red Ventures. Founder and CEO (2008-15) and Chair (2015-22), Rastreator. Current CEO, dide.org (2023-).

Quote

If something goes wrong, you know, and everybody’s there, you say, “No problem. Great. This is an opportunity.” If you are in a one-to-one with somebody, and something has gone wrong, you go deeper and say, “Okay, what could you have done better? And what could I have done better to make sure that this doesn’t happen?” But if you are communicating to your board, then the mistake is yours.

Adam Burns

Sandra, I love the simplicity of this explanation. How you deal with mistakes is contextual. What is the most important thing you have learned, and that you teach, about mistakes?

Professor Sandra Sieber

For me, the most important thing about mistakes is, actually, to see that they’re just a small part in a big scheme for moving forward. It’s very hard to make a mistake in strategy, but it’s very easy to make a mistake in hypothesis formulation. Because when we form a hypothesis, we just go and validate it. And we know there’s a counter hypothesis. One of the two is going to be more okay. And when you get into this process, rather than truth or failure, you have a more iterative culture, going step-by-step, and understanding that we cannot do so without making mistakes. And then, we work on it together and just share. We make sure that we all understand where the mistake happened, why it happened, and what we will do differently the next time. When you start to get that right, I think it’s a very powerful learning tool.

Adam Burns

Two more highlights now. The first from Arjen, who joined us in episode three to talk about making tough decisions. And the second from JJ Van Oosten, CDO, CDTO, CEO, non-executive director and serial transformationist, who spoke about leading through change. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they had something in common. Good leadership, they said, is about two things: clarity and simplicity…

From Ep 3 – How to make tough decisions

Arjen Schouten

Co-Chair, ShareAndWonder Foundation. Former COO & Co-Owner, Rituals.

Quote

In the end, when you are in business, and when you are a leader, the teams that you’re working with ask for clarity and direction. And anything that gets in the way of this makes it harder for them to operate. Especially when they are sensing that there are different signals from the leadership team.

From Ep 7 – Leading through change

JJ Van Oosten

CDO, CDTO, CEO, NED

Quote

What is crucial and essential is to, very quickly, and in a very simplistic way, articulate the expected outcomes, in terms of the what and the how. And the bias for action comes in there, because you need to do that very quickly. And the skill that I have, really, in myself, mentally, and I have to remain true to it, is to keep that simplicity around the expected outcomes, in terms of the what and how. And to ensure that the complexity of the organization and the environment doesn’t dilute the simplicity that we just aligned ourselves against. When you have that simplicity, then you have a story. And when I have a story, it needs to be tailored to the culture of the company, the history of the company, and it needs to be simple enough that anyone working in a shop, or any of our customers walking to any of our shops, or anyone in a call center, or on a chat online for e-commerce, can understand it within seconds. And that’s hard.

Adam Burns

This seems so simple. Ultimately, teams just want clarity and direction. Is it true?

Professor Sebastian Reiche

I think it’s simple in the sense of being concise and consistent. Because, when you say there’s a need for clarity and simplicity, it’s about having a very clear direction, I think. Having a clear purpose, a mission, and a very clear strategy for, “where are we heading?” Knowing exactly what your core values are, either as an organization or as an individual, makes life easier, because it’s easier for you to prioritize, to say no, or to take that one opportunity. You’re bombarded with different opportunities, and you’re able to navigate through them and decide which opportunity you’re going to pursue. So, that’s simple, in a way, because you have a clearer direction.

Adam Burns

And Sandra, JJ talked about ensuring that “the complexity of the organization and the environment” doesn’t dilute the simplicity of the story you tell your people and your customers. How can that be achieved?

Professor Sandra Sieber

When we talk about simplicity in times of change, the first thing that comes to mind is that we need autonomy, obviously. You cannot centralize, and you cannot plan for other things, because we are in times of change. So, the first thing that you’re asking for is autonomy. But then, we want this clarity and direction. And what happens is that we need mechanisms of alignment. The clarity and direction actually comes because we have a system of alignment. So, what we are talking about when we say “the complexity of the organization and the environment” is, how do we get organization within the environment? And how do we act on the things that happen outside, within a system that everybody understands, so that we can realign objectives and actually allow teams to be highly autonomous, but highly aligned? And then, suddenly, the whole thing gets simple again.

Adam Burns

We’ll revisit the idea of leadership being about keeping things simple later in the pod. But, for now, another key skill. And one of the best in the business joined us in episode two to talk about it. Geoffrey Moore is a best-selling author, keynote speaker – he says he’s never met a microphone he didn’t like – and advisor to companies, both small and very large indeed, including Microsoft and Salesforce. He wanted to talk about the power of storytelling…

SECTION 3: STORYTELLING, COMMUNICATION AND CULTURE

From Ep 2 – The power of storytelling

Geoffrey Moore

Author, Speaker, Advisor.

Quote

Narrative is at the core of identity, the core of mission and the core of purpose. Because narratives inspire people. And for me… You see, the analytics, the spreadsheets, the Excels and the SAP financial statements, they’re a necessary part of making it work. But they do not inspire. They do not engage and they don’t enlist. But when Steve Jobs said, “We want to think different here. We want to change the world. We don’t want to make sugar water. We want to make computers,” that engages and enlists. Like the narratives that are coming out of the Ukraine right now. I mean, Zelensky, he has an amazing capability to tell a narrative. And it’s just leadership. I think, to me, that’s why I care so much about narratives.

Adam Burns

Sebastian, business needs analytics and financials, and all that stuff needs management. But I think narrative, or storytelling, is a leadership skill, not a management skill. Do you agree?

Professor Sebastian Reiche

Yes, I do agree. I think, as a leader, your role is to inspire and to motivate. And telling stories, or crafting a narrative, ultimately, is a tool to create more simplicity in a complex environment. In a large organization, you need everyone to tell similar stories so that the key areas, the key values, and the key messages get through. And so, to me, that’s a key leadership skill.

Professor Sandra Sieber

Here, what we see is that narrative is especially important when the product is very complex, or the environment is changing very quickly. And we see that people need narrative, especially in fast moving industries. Both internally and externally. So, very often, you even need a narrative to engage with your customers, so that the customers realize which products they actually want to buy, and how to use the product. For example, when you saw the first iPod come on the market, people actually didn’t know what it was for. So, either you have a good narrative, or you cannot even sell your products. Now, the good leader, and not just business leaders, but also society leaders, actually needs to help us understand the world we are building, because it’s changing so incredibly fast.

Adam Burns

So, now we’re starting to pull together a narrative of our own from across the seven podcasts. Real leadership is about accepting mistakes in certain situations, such as when there are high levels of ambiguity and complexity, and always learning from those mistakes. It’s about providing complex organizations with real clarity of purpose and direction. And it’s about inspired storytelling.

But what happens in the everyday, when the leader is not there. How do you build a self-sustaining culture? Ibukun Awosika is an entrepreneur and a challenger. She joined us in episode four to talk about being authentic, and staying true to you. And this is what she had to say about building businesses with value, and values.

From Ep 4 – Being authentic

Ibukun Awosika

Entrepreneur, leader, speaker, challenger

Quote

I think communication is a majorly powerful tool. Communication, and example setting. Because, you know, words are cheap. Anybody can say anything. But action is tougher. And if you communicate very clearly what those expectations are, if you communicate very clearly what your vision is, if you communicate very clearly what your values are, and you document this as much as is possible, but more than that, you build those things that you say that you are into the DNA of the practices and the processes within the organization… Because, the leader, or the founder, will not be the one that is seen every day. But, if you’ve built it as a culture, and as the DNA, and the leaders you choose along the pipeline, to a large extent, represent the culture… That’s how corporate cultures are built, in a sense. There is good culture, bad culture. But how do you maintain it? It’s in continuous renewal, never taken for granted. Being consistently deliberate in choosing leaders at every level, not just leaders at the top, who represent what you consider to be important within your organization. I think, this way, over time, you would find that you’re able to consistently move the values forward through the generations.

Adam Burns

Sebastian, I really liked this quote from Ibukun. We get a sense of the complexity inherent in leadership and culture building. We talk a lot, even in this podcast, of course, about keeping things simple. But there’s nuance and compromise, and complexity and process. And when Ibukun talks of building a culture of continuous renewal, it made me think of a conversation you and I had with Arjen, in his episode, about hiring. Is hiring one of the areas that is most commonly and easily overlooked by the busy business leader?

Professor Sebastian Reiche

I fully agree. It’s your golden opportunity. Hiring is your golden opportunity to get people in who share the same purpose, and the same values. You can move people between roles, and you can develop skills. But having a value misalignment is much more difficult. You can obviously brainwash people later on, but it takes much longer. So, getting the right people in makes your life easy, because you don’t have to performance manage them later on. But I agree, it’s overlooked. And, in fact, if I think back to how many programs we’ve run on strategic hiring, I can’t think of very many. So, unfortunately, there is also not that much demand for organizations to really drill down into what it means to hire recruits strategically. And yet, I fully agree that it’s an important part of the way you build culture. You become who you recruit. Especially at higher levels, when you make high senior appointments. Whoever joins your organization will shape the future of your organization. They will shape your culture, and your strategy. So being very careful in your hiring is key.

Adam Burns

You become what you hire. That is a fabulous phrase.

We’re coming to the end of our series wrap now, and we shift our focus to people. Specifically, to getting the best from them. Here are Dr. Florian Weiß, former CEO of Jameda, and Christina Janzer, Head of Research and Analytics with Slack…

From Ep 5 – Optimism and productive magic

Dr. Florian Weiß

Former CEO, Jameda

Quote

Even if you don’t change the world every day, you do change the world of the people you work with.

From Ep 6 – Building brilliant places to work

Christina Janzer

Head of Research and Analytics, Slack

Quote

So, as you can imagine, work has changed dramatically over the last few years. We first saw, with the pandemic, people changing where and when they work. And what we’re seeing now is that there’s a huge focus on productivity. What we’re seeing is that executives are really stressed about squeezing more productivity out of their teams. I think, for something like 70% of executives, their number one concern is, “How do we get our employees to be more productive?” But what’s really interesting is that they’re thinking about productivity in, what I would consider, a very backwards way. They’re really focused on tracking what we call activity metrics. So, how many hours a day are people working? How many emails are they sending? Things like that. And what that’s doing is causing employees to focus on performative work. How can I appear productive? How can I make sure that I’m doing things that prove to my boss that I’m working? And the thing is, that doesn’t actually make people more productive. So, we’re focused on the wrong things. And I think there’s a huge opportunity for executives to shift their thinking. Meaning, let’s not focus on the number of hours that people are working. Let’s not focus on emails. Let’s track outputs. Let’s not track inputs. Let’s really get to the bottom of what we can do to improve productivity. And what we found to be the number one driver of productivity is trust. So, there’s a big opportunity for us to really think about, “How can we rebuild a culture of trust in the workplace?” Because that’s what’s going to ultimately drive productivity.

Adam Burns

Sandra, this sounds a lot like we’re making the same mistakes again. Presenteeism is one of the least effective in-person measures of productivity. And now we’re measuring it online as well. Why? Christina says 70% of executives want more productivity. Why are they putting measures in place that cause employees to focus on performative work?

Professor Sandra Sieber

I think it’s very important to see that, often, when we talk about digital transformation, we’re actually just referring to digital adaptation. And then, it’s more like business as usual. So, if you’re very productivity-focused, what you do is you put KPIs of productivity in place. This is because you’re not transforming. You’re just doing an adaptation that you hadn’t done before. And the COVID crisis actually triggered a lot of this. When it’s really about transformation, then it’s an adaptation to uncertain environments, to complex environments, or to something that you don’t know. And that is, I think, when the trust thing comes in. Because then, you need to give the teams slack. You need to give them the space to explore, to find out, to build new things, to make mistakes, and to learn from them. And then, you will define productivity in a very different way, because it’s going to be a learning outcome, not an earning outcome. And your KPIs are going to be different. They’re not going to be based on productivity. They’re going to be based on transformation. They’re going to be based on really innovating beyond the current limits.

Professor Sebastian Reiche

You asked, why do managers do that? Why are we going back to these metrics? If you think about control, there are three different types of control. There’s social control: people checking on each other, and peers checking on each other. There’s process control: I’m checking that you’re following a process that we’ve established. And there’s output control. Now, it so happens that managers still prefer process control, despite the pandemic, where we’ve been forced to sit back and give more autonomy to our teams. This is not new. We’re discussing this now, and we’ve been discussing it for many decades. These different control mechanisms have been around for 50, 60, 70 years, and yet, we’re still struggling with our temptation to move back to process control. Sandra mentioned command, control, just double-checking… And we really need to move away from this. It’s difficult, but we really need to move away from this.

From Ep 5 – Optimism and productive magic

Dr. Florian Weiß

Former CEO, Jameda

Quote

If you imagine for yourself a kind of graph, with an x-axis and a y-axis. On the x-axis, you would have the amount of knowledge about the company, about your competition, about the market. And you start with zero, and you go very far to the right, and you have 100% knowledge. On the y-axis, you have the amount of amazement and wonder in your company. Then, of course, if you have zero knowledge, everybody’s just amazed. Everything is a miracle, because you cannot explain anything; you don’t want your company to be in that place. But, let me talk about the other extreme. You know, where everything can be calculated based on algorithms. Everything is set into KPIs. At that moment, you have zero amazement, zero wonder, zero awe, and, I think, zero identification. At that moment, nobody loves to work in your company, because it’s nothing special. There’s no secret, no magic. So, I gave this kind of zone a name, which I call productive magic. Where you do leave some room for the magic to happen. Not everything is explainable. Not everything will be clear to everybody, but it does inspire people.

Adam Burns

Christina talked about rebuilding a culture of trust in the workplace. Florian talked then, I think, about something similar. About not measuring everything. About letting people play a little, and be experimental. But, Florian did say, of his productive magic idea, that “not everything will be clear to everybody”. And elsewhere, we’ve heard about the importance of clarity. Arjen said that teams ask for clarity and they ask for direction, and anything that gets in between makes it harder for them to operate. Is this balance between knowing what to measure, and when to let your people play, a critical modern skill? Is that something about which we can say: this is real leadership today?

Professor Sandra Sieber

In the end, real leadership today is a balancing act. Right? It’s understanding the different conditions that I have for different types of problems, and then applying different rules, or different tool sets, in order to be able to solve them.

Professor Sebastian Reiche

And I think managing dualities, in general, is what leadership is about. It’s not just about technology, when to use technology or when not to use it, and when to explore or when to exploit. Think about empowerment, for example. As a parent, you want to empower your kids. 100%. It’s difficult, but ultimately it’s easy, because you know where you’re heading. In an organization, it’s not 100%. So, the duality is, when do you empower, and when do you not empower. Again, it’s managing these two dualities. And, as someone mentioned, in many contexts, you, as a leader, have to undertake the balancing act of giving autonomy, making sure that team is accountable, aligning and realigning. So, it’s those balancing acts that leaders engage in. I think I would very much agree with that.

Adam

Sandra, Sebastian, thank you very much indeed.

Professor Sandra Sieber

It has been a pleasure.

Professor Sebastian Reiche

My pleasure, too.

Adam Burns

Well, thank you to Professor Sandra Sieber, Professor of Entrepreneurship, and Professor Sebastian Reiche, Professor of Managing People in Organizations, both at IESE Business School. And thank you for listening. All the episodes we’ve talked about are available now, I guess, wherever you found this one. Please do subscribe, share and let us know what you think. Is there anything you’d like us to talk about? Our contact details are in the podcast description. But for now, I’m Adam Burns. Goodbye.

The post How to fail right. With Professors Sandra Sieber and Sebastian Reiche (Podcast) appeared first on IESE Standout.

How to make change happen. With JJ Van Oosten (Podcast)

IESE Standout — Tue, 05 Dec 2023 07:40:20 +0000

Mckinsey says 70% of digital transformations fail, most often due to resistance from employees. And only 16% of employees believe their company’s digital reforms are long-term sustainable.

How do we do it better? How do we more quickly win people to our cause? And how do we create change that’s sustainable?

Well, if anyone should know… Jean-Jacques (JJ) Van Oosten has been called the alchemist. He describes himself as a serial digital transformationist. And he’s lead five large, complex and successful digital and omnichannel transformations at Rewe Group, Tesco, Travis Perkins, LEGO and Kingfisher.

Professor Iñigo Gallo is Associate Professor of Marketing at IESE Business School, one of the world’s best business schools – ranked No.1 in the world for six years running by the Financial Times.

This is Real leadership podcast: Every episode, a business leader shares human stories and hard truths from their career. And an expert turns those stories into lessons we can all learn.

In this episode, Iñigo and JJ discuss:

The communication skills you need to drive change
Common factors in all successful business transformations
Why do people resist change?
How can you help people resisting change?

Listen to this podcast:

Fore more content like this visit the Real Leadership website.

Podcast transcription:

Adam:

Hello and welcome to This is Real Leadership. Where a proven business leader shares human stories and hard truths from across their career. And an expert turns those words into lessons we can all learn.

In this episode, those lessons are about making change happen. And making it sustainable.

I’m Adam Burns. I’ve been talking and writing about business leadership for over 25 years, and still, every day’s a school day. Which is why, in this podcast, I’m also joined by that expert – a distinguished professor from IESE, one of the world’s best business schools – ranked number 1 in the world for six years running.

They’ll also be talking with our guest. And then, just with me. Offering their expert analysis of the conversation, as I ask: what are the real leadership lessons here? What can we all learn in the next 30 minutes?

Let’s find out. Welcome, Professor Iñigo Gallo.

Iñigo Gallo:

Thank you, Adam. Very happy to be here with you today.

Adam:

It’s great to have you back! Iñigo, you are Associate Professor of Marketing at IESE. Is marketing an underused skillset when it comes to creating and leading successful, sustainable business transformation?

Iñigo Gallo:

One of the things that we often revisit in class is what happens with a lot of startups; they dedicate a lot of effort, a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of resources to developing what they think it is that the market needs. And then, when they’re done developing it, they realize that they’ve run out of money, they’ve run out of resources. And, just using that example for this discussion that we’re going to have today with JJ, I’m curious to see if this is the same in his experience; that, many times, we undervalue the necessity of successfully marketing this internally, to overcome that resistance. That, for sure, is going to appear. So yes, of course we’ve got to think about the timeline, and the resources, and the technology, and the outcomes, and how we’re going to finance this. There’s no question – we’re going to think about all those things. But, going back to my startup example, we also need to think about how we’re going to market this, at least internally. And then, of course, how we’re going to communicate this to our customers. But, internally, what can we do to overcome the resistance that, by definition, we’re going to bump into from a lot of people in the organization?

Adam:

Thanks, Iñigo. And I don’t think that’s the last we’re going to hear about communication, or resistance, in this episode.

According to McKinsey, 70% of digital transformations fail, most often due to resistance, well, there you go, from employees. And only 16% of employees believe their company’s digital reforms are long-term sustainable. So, how do we do it better?

Today’s guest should know. Jean-Jacques Van Oosten has been called the alchemist. He describes himself as a serial digital transformationist, having led five large, complex and successful digital and omnichannel transformations at Rewe Group, Tesco, Travis Perkins, LEGO and Kingfisher.

We started by asking JJ what, if anything, those five change projects had in common…

—

JJ Van Oosten:

I think they all had a, sort of, burning platform in common. An absolute need for change because of the change in consumers’ and customers’ behavior – buying far more things on the internet. But also, because of the competition from very large marketplaces, and we all know who they are, putting a lot of pressure on their growth. That’s one element that I could see. The second element that was very clear, which is very important, is that there were very high expectations, and a desire and a will from the chief executive and the chairman of those companies, to actually do and achieve those changes. But they don’t know what the changes are. They don’t know how to do this. And there’s a level of concern, obviously, which many of them have, and also fear, because very few people are capable of enjoying ambiguity. And this ambiguity, this unknown, getting on a boat when you know, more or less, what the destination is, but you don’t quite know how you’re going to get there, requires quite a few skills to bring all of those people together.

Adam:

I find this…this is really interesting to me. And I’ve heard it lots in different places, this notion of not knowing where we’re going. And, being comfortable with ambiguity, and all that sort of thing. How do you prepare someone for being completely unprepared?

Iñigo Gallo:

What happens in class most times is, okay, here’s a big decision that the company is facing. We have reasons both for doing A, and doing B, but we can’t do both at the same time. And there’s probably not one single reason that’s going to win the argument. And so, it’s really about weighing the pros and cons of both options. And, in the end, just saying, “Listen. Just try to get a sense of which of the two options is stronger, or makes more sense, even though it’s not perfect, and even though it doesn’t just have pros and advantages”. And, once you decide, you stick to it, and you push hard for it, because you’re never going to have 100% of the evidence being for something. If that were the case, then it would not be a difficult decision to make. By definition, if it’s a difficult decision, it means that there’s more than one way of going about it. And so, you’ve got to be okay with not having all the data, not having all the arguments, and having that ambiguity that JJ was talking about.

Adam:

Is it important, JJ, to have a bias for action, do you think?

JJ Van Oosten:

I think that helps. But what is crucial and essential is to, very quickly, and in a very simplistic way, articulate the expected outcomes, in terms of the what and the how. And the bias for action comes in there, because you need to do that very quickly. And the skill that I have, really, in myself, mentally, and I have to remain true to it, is to keep that simplicity around the expected outcomes, in terms of the what and how. And to ensure that the complexity of the organization and the environment doesn’t dilute the simplicity that we just aligned ourselves against. When you have that simplicity, then you have a story. And when I have a story, it needs to be tailored to the culture of the company, the history of the company, and it needs to be simple enough that anyone working in a shop, or any of our customers walking to any of our shops, or anyone in a call center, or on a chat online for e-commerce, can understand it within seconds. And that’s hard.

—

So, successful transformation projects have a clearly defined and understood reason for change, desire and will from the Chief Executive, and constant communication around simple outcomes. And you need simplicity, because you’re taking people into a place where they’re expected to be comfortable with not knowing. With ambiguity. The journey itself is confusing, so the destination, at least, should be clear.

The next part of our conversation, though, is about why – even if you have all the things I just listed in place – why people still resist change. And, what you can do about it.

Iñigo Gallo:

My sense is that, in all these projects, as important and as crucial as they are for businesses, the biggest resistance is probably people’s resistance. So, inside the organization, I think there’s a number of reasons why people resist it. Why we all resist it, myself included. So, this is probably a natural human condition that, “Hey, on average, I’m not that excited about change”. Maybe there’s also the sense that traditional things still work – and there are many traditional things that do still work. And so, why do we need to go so fast? Why do we need to change so many things? Maybe there’s also the memory of past failures. Yeah, we tried this technological change, or whatever, many years ago, and it was a complete disaster. And, linked to this, maybe there’s also the sense of, “Hey, let’s see how others do it, and then we’ll jump once it’s been proven”.

JJ Van Oosten:

And, they all think they are serving their customers every day, but most of them don’t know who their customers are. The real question here, and this is where the resistance is, is how do we change our habit of just thinking about products, formats, and processes which have been very successful, as Iñigo was saying, for many years, and add a dimension of customers? Saying, “Okay, who are those customers I have? How many do I need to actually make this budget work? How much does it cost me to acquire new customers? How much does it cost me? And what’s the best way to retain them?” And, adding that new dimension to all of your thinking is pretty difficult to do, to be honest. Because nobody wants to admit that they don’t know who their customers are. Nobody wants to admit that they aren’t serving their customers in the best possible way every day. And that is a big change.

Iñigo Gallo:

I really like the way you put it; that no one likes to admit that he or she doesn’t know their customer. I think this is crucial. And I think, many times, this is something that comes up in class and in many discussions: you are not a fair representation of your market. And so, the first thing we need to do is de-bias ourselves. And the longer you’ve been in the business, the more you need this, right? Because the temptation to tell yourself, “I already know,” gets bigger and bigger the more years you’ve been at it, particularly if you’ve been successful. And so, you tend to think, “All my customers, more or less, behave the way I behave”. This is just a human condition, I guess, that we tend to think that way.

Adam:

So, if you want to do change effectively, do you need to bring in somebody from outside of the company? Is it actually very difficult to do if you’ve been in that company for a long time? Do you need a fresh set of eyes, a fresh voice?

JJ Van Oosten:

You know, if you’ve done the same movements every day, for example, if you’ve been running every day for the last 20 years, but you haven’t been swimming, or if you haven’t done any weightlifting, or whatever, making a change is not enjoyable. It’s painful, or some of it is painful, because it’s a new habit that you have to acquire. And so, there’s definitely something to address there. When you do make those changes, sometimes you bring a coach in to help you learn these new skills, so that you don’t hurt yourself, and so that you learn faster. And, as for the question of outsourcing your transformation, I think that this is, in my personal opinion, a very dangerous thing to do.

—

We resist change because we think everything’s okay, or because we’ve tried it before, or because we’ve been gently institutionalized. And some ways through that are to re-focus – properly, fully, and without preconceived notions – on what your customers do actually want. Bring in a coach to help you add new exercises to your daily fitness routine.

And give your teams the opportunity to not only be a part of that transformation, but to shape it. To create their own future without fear of failure.

JJ believes you achieve this last point through the creation of safe spaces. Crucially, though, they’re safe, but not unchallenging.

—

JJ Van Oosten:

There are two aspects to it. The first one is that, it’s a bit of a cliché, but everyone is welcome. And no one will be criticized for whatever they say, as long as it is within ethical grounds. And those who do not speak will be given the time and the opportunity. I specifically seek out those people, as well, to actually speak. Because some are very introverted, and some are very quiet, but sometimes those people have a lot to contribute, and you have to respect that. That is very important. The cross-functional: so, taking people away from their silos, bringing them together as cross-functional teams working from marketing, supply chain, finance, tech, design product design, etc., and making them work on problems that are very complex to solve. How do you make a new kitchen available and accessible to low-income families, with all the features of using less water, electricity, etc.? You know, these are big, complex problems to resolve. How do you make sure that information is easily digestible on the internet as well? So, those teams are working on that. And by definition, they will challenge some existing practices. It is very important to create an environment where they can do this, and they can actually be rewarded for that. And if they fail, because they take risks, you should actually also celebrate some failures. And that’s okay. The ability to actually recognize that this is a failure, and stop it and not continue – this is a big mindset change. And then, at the very top level, behind closed doors, part of my job is to call out some behavior which is not acceptable from other executives. And that’s because they have to go through their own changes. But, if they think they’re losing power, or whatever, or they come with curve balls, etc., which happens all the time, then, I call it a day, and I say that’s not acceptable. And usually what happens is that, after those difficult discussions at the very top, when some behaviors might not completely be aligned, usually, what happens is that, after a few hours or a few days, we become best friends again. This is why the way you do it is quite important. Because, you might apologize or whatever, but it’s always with the best of intentions. It’s never personal. And I never personally get dragged into the war of words, because then the complexity of the existing organization, and the existing culture, will actually drag down the simplicity of the transformation, and the expected outcomes, and it will slow everything down.

Adam:

I interviewed someone, actually, maybe 10 years ago, who had led a super-huge merger and acquisition in pharmaceuticals. And he said something that’s stuck with me. He said, “The people who will derail your project are not the ones who say no to your face. It’s the ones who say yes to your face but no behind your back”. He called them ‘passive resistors’. How would you deal with them?

Iñigo Gallo:

Yes. I imagine this has to do with something that JJ mentioned at the very beginning. I think, if I remember right, JJ mentioned that the two common things he has experienced in the transformations he has led are that it was needed, and he talked about the changes in the consumer and the changes in competition. But also, I think you mentioned, JJ, that there was a strong, clear, explicit interest from the CEO, or from whoever was in charge. Otherwise, I guess, JJ, it’s a very difficult war to fight, or to put it in a more positive tone, a very difficult conflict to deal with.

JJ Van Oosten:

It’s not possible, to be honest. So, that’s why, I’ve done five, but I always take time. I’ve learned from that, as well. I take time at the beginning, if you have interviews, or whatever it is. But I also interview the company, and the executive team, and the chief executive, and the chairman. Because – do they really understand the consequence of what the expected outcomes that they think they want to have will be? Do they really understand? Because, our job as senior executives is quite simple. It is to give absolute priorities, and not too many of them – a few, clear priorities. And our other job is to give the resources to the teams to actually be successful. But, as resources are not just people and money, it’s also our job, when they encounter blockages, to remove those blockages for them. And they need to be able to do it, not coming with 60 PowerPoint pages, but to do it very fast. All the ways of working based on data and automations need to enable us as a team, top to bottom and bottom to top, to actually have visibility and transparency of what’s going on. And, very clearly, very quickly, when necessary – it could be every day at the beginning, but this is often not the case… On the most important blockages, it might be around, “We cannot have the same SKUs from these vendors that we have been selling for 20 years, etc.”, and that creates conflicts, or it might be around files of product attributes, it might be around pricing strategies and decisions, it might be around the way that you architect things, it might be around some agencies that we might be using in marketing, or whatever. All of this can block some of the teams from making progress. And you need to make sure that you unblock that very quickly.

—

Adam:

So, Iñigo, time for your thoughts. We promised real business lessons you can use. What did you learn? What do you take away from JJ?

Iñigo Gallo:

I think, one thing I really liked is, when he described the responsibility of a top executive in an organization, he mentioned two things, which I think he has probably learned from his projects on transformation, but which I think can be generalized to everything. He mentioned that top executives do two things. They set priorities – just a few, very clear priorities – and they provide resources for the teams. So, those two things are part of the job of a top executive. I also liked when he talked about how, in a project that is this big, transforming an organization, you’ve got to make a very, very strong effort to articulate the expected outcomes. And again, just a few, a handful, not a lot. But, be very clear about what is it that you expect. And then the last one that we spoke a bit about, and which I also liked, is this necessity of creating safe spaces for change. I think this speaks to the other podcasts that we’ve done, about learning from mistakes, with Elena. I think that speaks to this a lot.

Adam:

It is so much about team, isn’t it? It’s so much about people helping each other.

Iñigo Gallo:

Yeah, I think it was constantly there, the theme of getting people on board, understanding people, solving conflict.

Adam:

Thank you to Professor Iñigo Gallo, Associate Professor of Marketing at IESE Business School. And thank you, of course, for listening. Please do subscribe, share and let us know what you think of our podcast. Are companies single-use only, or the rarest of beasts: leopards that can change their spots? Do you think differently to JJ and Iñigo? Please let us know in the comments, or email us. We’d love to hear from you. All details are in the podcast description. But, for now, from me, goodbye.

The post How to make change happen. With JJ Van Oosten (Podcast) appeared first on IESE Standout.

Alberto Cabanes. Social entrepreneurship with Adopta un Abuelo. Success stories.

IESE Standout — Thu, 23 Nov 2023 12:05:25 +0000

Alberto Cabanes is the CEO and founder of Adopta un Abuelo [Adopt a Grandparent], a social enterprise that connects tens of thousands of young people with older people. Cabanes also has an EMBA from IESE.

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Alberto Cabanes must have been very young – a child, in fact – when he realized that his grandfather, Clemente, always went everywhere with him. Clemente took him to English and handball (Cabanes ended up playing the sport competitively, and joining the federation), and he was also there to tell him stories. Sometimes, little Alberto went on ‘trips’ with him and Pilar, his grandmother, to Picón, the town in Ciudad Real where they came from.

Time passed, and eventually Pilar died. And Clemente became very dependent. And Alberto Cabanes began to come from Madrid every weekend to visit him in the home. And that was how he got to know Bernardo, his grandfather’s new friend. The three of them spent time chatting and playing dominoes or card games. One day, Bernardo, who was widowed, admitted that his greatest dream would have been to have a grandchild. And Cabanes told him that, in that case, he was adopting him as his grandfather.

In this way, the idea for the social enterprise Adopta un Abuelo was the result of a joke. But it was a very serious joke. Because, in some ways, Cabanes really did adopt Bernardo. And he immediately realized that there were millions of ‘Bernardos’ who needed someone who would remember them.

And he wanted to offer them the same opportunity as he had offered his grandfather’s friend. But all he had was an idea, and he needed a helping hand. Lots of helping hands. He could not have imagined that, within a decade, he would become one of IESE’s 40 most prominent entrepreneurs under the age of 40, or that the Adopta un Abuelo website would end up with 250,000 registered users in 18 countries.

I’m going for it: I want to be a social entrepreneur!

By the age of 27, Alberto Cabanes had come to one conclusion: he truly wanted to be a social entrepreneur. And he thought he was ready to launch a project that would create connections of mutual understanding and care between the generations.

It was 2016, and he had a daunting year and half ahead of him. He earned nothing for 11 months, spent all his savings, applied for a loan, sold his car and television, and left his house, sleeping on the floor at his friend Mario’s place, and at his then girlfriend’s. At least, he says, he didn’t have children or a mortgage. In spite of this, as Alberto Cabanes said in the conversation he had with IESE professor Mireia Las Heras, which you can watch below, “I would have been stupid not to go for it!”

The need he wanted to respond to was very real. According to some surveys, more than 10% of older people in Italy, Germany, France and the United States feel lonely. In Spain, where two million older people live alone, and around 350,000 of them are in homes, the situation is the same.

But, even though he was young, Cabanes thought he was ready, because he already knew what it was like to try and fail. He had played handball professionally and, at the age of 24, shortly after having earned his degree in Business Administration and Management, his first startup went out of business. Cabanes made almost 10,000 euros with Tachans.com, which could have been the first social network for federations, clubs and sports people.

However, nothing turned out as he had hoped. He learned how to fall. And how to get back up. And how to stand out as a senior auditor at KPMG once he got back up from his leap of faith. He juggled the difficult beginnings of Adopta un Abuelo and his work at KPMG, until he was finally able to make the leap once again; something which, according to him, was a real challenge.

And that leap would only be the first of many. As a result, in 2021, his passion for continuing to innovate, as well as the growing complexity of the business and of managing more and more operations and teams, led him to believe that he needed more training. So, he studied for his EMBA at IESE; a demanding experience that lasted 18 months, spanning 3 continents.

Cabanes noted that, for him, the program had been “a transformative experience”, in which he had the opportunity to learn from both his classmates and his professors, studying 350 real-world cases of companies that faced some of the challenges that the CEO and founder of Adopta un Abuelo would need to overcome from that moment on.

Once of those challenges, undoubtedly, was how to continue to exploit innovation in order to fight the loneliness epidemic that is plaguing older people.

Innovating with Adopta un Abuelo, so that older people aren’t alone

Adopta un Abuelo has surprised the entire sector, with organized activities (dances, after-work gatherings) and unique experiences that allow the relationship between the older person and their new companion to flow naturally.

Out of all the experiences, it is worth highlighting, for example, one in which some ‘grandmothers’ taught AXA employees some traditional, healthy recipes via video-conference, and another in which BBVA volunteers helped some older people with technology through the Abuelos Hackers initiative.

Adopta un Abuelo has reinvented the idea of donations, creating specific campaigns through which sponsors can give money to help make an older person’s dream come true. This is how, for example, one lady fulfilled her dream of flying in a plane for the first time, and it is how another older person, Juan, was able to watch a match in the new Atlético Madrid stadium.

Both the donations that people make when they become a member and the donations from the challenges use a secure online electronic gateway, and the Adopta un Abuelo mobile app. Cabanes also made the most of technology to increase transparency: sponsors can always see what their donations were used for, and the expenditure that justifies them. At the same time, volunteers can register digitally on the platform in just a few minutes.

Cabanes also designed a digital control panel, which allows him and his team to monitor all the Adopta un Abuelo operations, and to develop their own metrics. As an example, they know that almost 50,000 hours of company have been provided for older people, and they also have specific knowledge of the needs of members, sponsors and volunteers. More than 1,000 Google reviews give Adopta un Abuelo an ‘average score’ of 4.9 out of five.

Naturally, none of this would have been possible if Cabanes had not understood that even the smallest decisions can have a major impact on the organization, and that leading involves learning from the best and cultivating humility, in order to continue learning every day. In short, to be a great leader, you first have to be a great person, because true leadership is human; a real story of Real Leadership from IESE.

Adopta un Abuelo: older people have a lot to offer

For Alberto Cabanes, spending time with older people is a win-win, as the ‘older people’ clearly benefit from the volunteers giving them a helping hand, while at the same time, the volunteers also get access to an experience that will change their lives, thanks to the older people.

What exactly does that win-win consist of? It consists of the following:

1) The volunteers can benefit from practicing their empathy, or their active listening. And everyone gets the opportunity to connect with people from completely different generations, who have had completely different experiences. This is especially beneficial for children.

2) The older people can simply enjoy the company of the people who meet them and appreciate them, or they can participate in fun leisure activities with them, or live their dreams by flying on planes or going to watch soccer.

As Cabanes says, “older people tell better stories than Netflix”, and it’s a pleasure to listen to them. At the same time, volunteers can not only share this experience with the older people, but also with their parents and siblings, school friends or work colleagues.

This was the case for Pablo and Sofía, a couple who started spending time with Mariví, a lady who never left her room in the home as she was suffering from severe depression. As Cabana recounted in the podcast with Mireia Las Heras, after a few months of spending time with them, Mariví not only started leaving her room, but one day even dared to cross the street in the home to buy some cakes. She wanted to organize a little tea party for the couple who had come to see her so often.

Alberto Cabanes is conscious of the fact that this example of Mariví demonstrates the success cultivated by a tiny startup which grew very quickly, and became a well-established social enterprise within ten years. Adopta un Abuelo has already exceeded 12,000 volunteers, 6,000 ‘adopted’ grandparents, and almost 50,000 hours of company for the most vulnerable

Alberto Cabanes knows that he has come a very long way in a very short time since that day, long ago, when he decided to ‘adopt’ Bernardo, and when he subsequently sold his car and left his house to make his dream a reality. Indeed, he has come a long way, but this is just the beginning of the great adventure of his life.

You can watch the video-podcast of the conversation between Alberto Cabanes and the IESE professor, Mireia Las Heras, here:

The post Alberto Cabanes. Social entrepreneurship with Adopta un Abuelo. Success stories. appeared first on IESE Standout.

Trust and productivity in a happy workplace. With Christina Janzer (Podcast)

IESE Standout — Tue, 21 Nov 2023 11:45:15 +0000

For 70% of executives, the number one stress is how to raise productivity. Christina Janzer knows exactly what will work – and exactly what won’t (and it’s something we guarantee a whole lot of you are doing).

Christina is Head of Research and Analytics for productivity platform Slack. Armed with insights from Slack’s global knowledge worker research – a survey of 10,000 desk workers – she says she wants to make work a little better every day.

Professor Marta Elvira is Professor of Strategic Management and Managing People in Organisations at IESE Business School, one of the world’s best business schools – ranked No.1 in the world for six years running by the Financial Times.

This is Real leadership podcast: Every episode, a business leader shares human stories and hard truths from their career. And an expert turns those stories into lessons we can all learn.

In this episode, Christina and Marta discuss:

What metrics do you need to know to change now
How to build a culture of trust
How to break down siloes between departments and teams
How to stay ahead in a rapidly changing world

Listen to this podcast:

Fore more content like this visit the Real Leadership website.

Podcast transcription:

Adam:

Hello and welcome to This is Real Leadership. Where, every episode, a proven business leader shares human stories and hard truths from across their career. And an expert turns those words into lessons we can all learn.

In this episode, those lessons are about trust and communication, with one goal: to make your workplace, well, a better place to work.

I’m Adam Burns. I have been talking and writing about business leadership for over 25 years and still, every day’s a school day. Which is why, in this podcast, I’m joined by a distinguished professor from IESE, one of the world’s best business schools, ranked number 1 in the world for six years running.

They’ll also be talking with our guest. And then, just with me. Offering their expert analysis of the conversation, as I ask, “What are the real leadership lessons here?”.

So, what can we learn in the next 30 minutes. Let’s find out with our expert, Professor Marta Elvira. Marta, you are Professor of Strategic Management and Managing People in Organizations at IESE. The Irish playwright George Bernard Shaw is widely quoted as saying, “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” Shaw died in 1950. Marta, why is this still true?

Marta Elvira:

I suppose, because “Communication, communication, communication” is the message that we hear from the experts. But also, within organizations, we take it for granted. Because, I think, with increased diversity in the workplace comes different ways of expressing and understanding messages. And therefore, this will be a constant in a workplace that is increasingly diverse. We need to work with people that may have been educated in different systems, who are used to different cultures, and who express messages differently. So, learning to understand the real message takes time, and that’s not going to go away. And distance, or flexible working, is not facilitating that. Technology could facilitate it, but we cannot assume this is happening. So, yes, the message is as relevant as it was over 70 years ago, I guess. And we are never done with this topic, which bodes very well for organizational communication experts.

Adam:

Which brings us very nicely on to this week’s guest. Christina Janzer is Head of Research and Analytics for productivity platform Slack. Armed with insights from Slack’s Global Knowledge Worker research, a survey of 10,000 desk workers, Christina says she wants to make work a little better every day.

But how? We continue to experience seismic shifts in the world of work: the pandemic, economic uncertainty, new and deeply transformative technologies. We asked Christina how these sorts of things are showing up in her research. And, if we want to make work better, where should we start?

—

Christina Janzer:

Adam:

Are we seeing then, in effect, a form of digital presenteeism?

Christina Janzer:

100%. I think we’re all still getting used to this new way of working. I think managers are really struggling. This is something that we’ve seen over the last few years of research that we’ve done. Managers are struggling, because their jobs completely shifted, and they don’t have the tools to figure out, “How do I make sure that my team is productive? If I don’t see people every day, how do I know that the work is happening?” And I think it’s easy for them to think about, again, activity metrics and say, “Well, if I at least see that there are a lot of emails being sent, then maybe I can feel good that work is happening”.

Marta Elvira:

I thought your headline for the research was quite daring. I mean, trust is the key driver of productivity. And productivity has been the outcome of choice for management research for over a century, right? It’s like the holy grail that everyone is looking for. It’s very interesting. You mentioned that the metrics have changed according to the way work is changing. So, I was curious as to why you think that it is trust, really, that is driving productivity, relative to the many other variables that go into work?

Christina Janzer:

Yeah, it’s a great question, and it’s something that we’ve thought a lot about. I think that, when you feel trusted, the door opens for you to be more creative. It opens for you to be more innovative. And it opens for you to really come up with new solutions. What we see in the research is that people who feel trusted are two times more productive. I think you can imagine that, when you have that trust, again, you feel like you’re able to take risks, and you feel like you’re able to try new things. We also find that, when you feel trusted, you’re so much more likely to go above and beyond. The other thing we know is that people who feel trusted are much more likely to stay with their company. If you don’t feel trusted, you’re twice as likely to just leave, and find a new job.

Marta Elvira:

And, there is a bit of a balance to be struck, right? Because, in reality, I’m not sure that putting in more work actually equates to being more productive. So, there is a trick where leaders need to also evaluate what productive work is. But, we’ve already been through that. I was also curious about how you tie that trust to flexible work?

Christina Janzer:

So, yes, I’ll talk about flexible work in a second. I love the point that you just made. Because I don’t think the point here is to just get more and more out of our people. I think that there’s this risk that, if you enable people, or if you trust people, they’ll be more productive, and then they’ll just do more and more. I don’t think that’s the point here. I think we want to inspire people to come up with better ways of doing things, and more creative ways…

Marta Elvira:

Exactly.

Christina Janzer:

…of doing things. Not so that they can be 10 times more productive. Because I think it’s important to understand the key relationship between being well and doing well, and being good and doing good work. Employee experience is so important to pay attention to. And I think that we sometimes think of this as being at odds with productivity. But, if we take care of our employees, if we focus on their mental and physical wellbeing, if we trust them and nurture them, they’re going to do amazing work. And the point of that is not so that they can do 10 times more. I do think that’s a really important point. So, the question you asked was about the relationship between trust and flexibility?

Marta Elvira:

Correct.

Christina Janzer:

So, what we know from our research is that there are many benefits of flexibility. And we also know that the future of work is hybrid. Not for everyone, but for many companies. People are figuring out what the right sort of hybrid model is, or the right flexible model. And we see that there’s a really important connection between flexibility and productivity. So, when people have schedule flexibility, that leads to greater productivity. The reason for that is, if you have more flexibility in your schedule, maybe to work when it’s best for you, or to carve out time to have that really deep, focused work, you’re going be more productive, right? Because you’re going to have that time to really focus and get your work done. If you’re just, sort of, 9 to 5, back-to-back meetings, it’s much harder to be productive. So, we see a really important relationship between trust and flexibility.

—

Real talk (voice and music)

—

So, boosting productivity is the holy grail for 70% of executives. And the future of work, for most, not all, is hybrid, with schedule flexibility playing a big role in boosting productivity. So, problem solved! Well, no. A lot of executives are not ready for hybrid, because they can’t figure out whether or not people with flexible schedules, who aren’t at work, are working. Which leads to the wrong things being measured. And now workers don’t feel trusted, so productivity is down. And executive stress levels are up.

But it’s this trust that is the key for Christina. And Marta wanted to know how it’s grown, and where it begins.

—

Marta Elvira:

I’d love to hear how you foster that listening, and that transparency. Getting people to lower the guard which they so commonly have up in organizations, for fear of retributions or negative evaluations beyond good performance.

Christina Janzer:

You know, when I think about how I spend my time as a leader… Many leaders spend so much time interviewing, hiring and finding the right people to come and join their company. Right? That takes a lot of time, and you put a lot of thought into who you are trying to hire. Making sure that you have a diverse panel. It’s a huge task. And it’s so interesting to me that we spend so much time hiring the right person, but then we start with zero trust. And so, my philosophy as a leader is, when somebody first joins my team, I 100% trust them. That’s how they start. Our relationship starts with 100% trust. Of course, they might lose that trust over time, but they probably won’t, if I did a good job hiring. What we see in our research is that, so often, people don’t even have access to the information they need to do their job. It’s like they have to earn it over time. And that doesn’t make sense. We should be trusting people from the start, and giving them all the tools and all the information that they need in order to do a good job. So, that’s just one really small thing that I think is important. But then, the other thing I was going to say is, there’s a huge role for us to play as leaders by setting the example. Setting the tone, being vulnerable. I talk about the fact that I have kids and that I have other priorities, and that I take a break to volunteer, or I do whatever it is that I’m doing outside of work. And I think it’s really good for leaders to set that tone. Similarly, somebody at the company who’s on the executive team, who’s a male, he’s doing a really great job setting the example by taking paternity leave. And saying, “I’m going take the whole thing. This is what it’s going to look like. I’m going to celebrate that”. Because, believe it or not, in America, that’s not always the case. So, I think there’s a big opportunity for leaders to set the tone. And, in terms of what our research tells us, transparency really builds trust. When you look at companies that are more transparent, you see that they have higher trust. And when I say transparency, what I mean is really important. It’s something that you said, Marta: it’s a two-way street. So, it’s leadership sharing with employees what’s top of mind, what’s going on with the company, what some of the decisions are that we’re grappling with, and how strategy is shifting. But it’s also the other way around; listening to employees and understanding what they are struggling with, understanding how they are feeling and what’s getting in the way of them doing the best work of their careers. And, most importantly, once you hear from them, say it back to them. This is what we heard. And actually make progress on improving. I think we often hear that people do the survey, but then they don’t do anything with the data. So that’s definitely something that we pay really close attention to. But creating those systems for that two-way feedback is so, so important. And I think, if we go back to what we were talking about, leadership looks very different now. Training leaders to be great communicators, and to be great at this sort of transparent two-way communication, is so important.

Marta Elvira:

And, if I may ask, would you have an example you could share of one of these responses to the employees concerned? Something you’ve put into practice because of that two-way feedback?

Christina Janzer:

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things we heard from our feedback, and this really dates back to some of the early days of the pandemic, was this idea that employees were feeling meeting fatigue. They felt like they were spending too much time in meetings. So, we pay really close attention to whether people feel like they have enough time in their day to focus. It’s one of our key metrics that we track internally. And we were hearing that people did not have enough time in their day to focus. So, we implemented two programs. One of them is called Maker Week. This happens twice a quarter, where we cancel all internal meetings. And there might be exceptions where you have to meet with an external customer, or maybe you’re interviewing somebody externally, but when it comes to internal meetings, we cancel them all. We give people this really luxurious week where they can just think creatively and do deep work. And people love it. It helps with their productivity, but also it helps with their mental state. They feel they have space to breathe. They feel they have space to catch up. And they leave that week feeling recharged and ready for the next week. But the other really interesting outcome is that it’s a forcing function, to really think about, “Maybe we actually don’t need that meeting. Canceling that meeting was not really a big deal. I didn’t really miss it”. It forces us to work in more asynchronous ways. So, that’s been really cool.

Adam:

I’m genuinely fascinated by the old, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, did it fall? If you have no meetings, do executives even exist?

Christina Janzer:

That’s a great question!

Marta Elvira:

Hmm…

Christina Janzer:

So, we’ve done some research on meetings and, I can tell you what the data we got back said. It said that about 50% of meetings could be canceled with no consequences. And maybe 50% is not the perfect number, but it’s a really strong signal, right? It’s a strong signal that a lot of meetings maybe could be redesigned. And executives and individual contributors agree about that. To me, that’s a little bit of a wake-up call, meaning that we need to have a higher bar if we’re going to ask people to spend synchronous time together. Because I think that all of the data, and all of the research that we’ve done, points to the importance of flexibility. And flexibility is also important when you think about managing teams that are distributed. So, if people are in different time zones, it’s hard to get them in the same place at the same time. For that reason, it’s also important to enable that flexibility. But all the research and all the data points to the importance of flexibility. And, what gets in the way of flexibility? Too many meetings. So, I’m not a ‘cancel all meetings’ type of person, but I do think that it’s important for us to have a higher bar. To really think critically about, “Does this need to be a meeting?” And if not, are there other ways that we could make a decision, or accomplish something, or get people aligned? This has also been much more inclusive. When you think about how people participate… How many times have I been in a meeting where I’m the only female in a sea of men? And sometimes it’s hard to contribute. Sometimes it’s hard to get your thoughts out, and I’m not the only person like that. Sometimes having that conversation in an asynchronous way, whether that’s in a tool like Slack or email, gives people more space to make sure that their voice is heard. So, there’s that component of inclusion, but then, there’s also the idea that not everyone has the same schedule. If you’re not able to make the meeting because you’re dropping your kid off at school, there are still other ways for you to participate and other ways for you to contribute.

—

Adam:

And now, we know. Trust starts on day one. Flexibility builds trust. Trust boosts productivity. And too many meetings will spoil it all. Stop 50% of them right now, today. And either everything will be instantly better. Or, that act will force you into working in more useful ways. Either way: it’s a win.

Which brings us to our last question. This, from Marta.

—

Marta Elvira:

Is it possible that this redesigned work, with flexibility for everyone’s preferred work style, and a more productive work style, means that we don’t really need people in person, in the workplace, at the same time? Because the debate I’m having… You know, I did my PhD at UC Berkeley in the 90s, and telework was already a thing, right? Then we had the pandemic, and remote work, globally, is “the new new thing”, to quote the book by Michael Lewis, which was written around 20 years ago. And, now that it has finally spread out across organizations, it seems we are recalling workers back to the workplace. Many companies, which will remain unnamed but which can be found everywhere, are asking employees to come back. Given the discussion we just had, I would love to know what your impression is. Are we back to the future, or in the present? Where are we at? Is it possible to have no in-person work at all?

Christina Janzer:

On the whole, if you look at the data in totality, hybrid work and remote work is the future. But there are really important moments for being together. Sometimes, for things like onboarding and trainings, it is really beneficial. Mentorship, especially for people who are new to the workforce, and that in-person connection, can be really important. So, I don’t believe that we always need to be together, but I do think that there is a time and place for that. I can give you an example of how we’re thinking about it for my specific team. We are completely distributed. Before the pandemic, we were all in the same place. But we are now completely distributed. Even if I showed up to the office, I would see, maybe, one person on my team. But everyone else would be in a different location, either at home or in a different office. So, it doesn’t even make sense for me to think about bringing people back to the office, because that wouldn’t mean anything. Instead, what we do is, twice a year, maybe once a quarter, depending on the time, we get together for three days. This is an intentionally designed offsite, where we really focus on building connection to one another, building connection to the team and to the company. We work on building that trust. We work on certain activities that are much better done in person. But we really make the most of that time together. And what we see is that, when we’re really intentional about how we spend that time together, we feel so connected that we could be on different sides of the country for the next three months and it would be fine, because we’ve built that strong foundation. So, that’s what we’re really thinking about for my team. We’re all remote, we’re all hybrid, we’re all doing our own thing. That’s what we all prefer to do for our own personal situations. But getting together on a regular basis, once a quarter, is perfect, and it really enables us to have that solid foundation.

Adam:

Christina, thank you very much indeed.

Marta Elvira:

Thank you so much.

Christina Janzer:

Thank you. This was fun!

—

Adam:

So, Marta, time for your analysis. It was so good, I thought, to hear from someone who’s got the data, who’s running all these interesting experiments, and who’s so committed to making work better. But, we promised real business lessons. What did you learn from Christina?

Marta Elvira:

Like you said, it is such an interesting topic that it’s hard to just mention three takeaways. Because, I’m also hoping to keep a lot of this conversation for my class, and for my own writing and research. But, first of all, I think that, on the topic of redesigning work and the issue of participation, leaders working together with their teams, and setting clear expectations for the jointly acceptable team objectives, enables a lot of trust to be built. So, participation goes hand in hand with inclusiveness. And that allows us to develop new ways of working that can adapt flexibly, like a glove, to the different members of that hand, or of that team, and that can lead us to work together effectively. The second point is that, it depends on the company culture. So, the way that you include that participation, which might require different ways of building connection in person, allows you to capitalize on that collaborative spirit and continue to work remotely for months at a time, based on that strong foundation. What is important, here, is that leaders should be great communicators. And I think that this is a constant in leadership development. But it is even more important in this case. Communication goes two ways. There is a feedback cycle of good listening that allows team members’ concerns to be incorporated. And then you go back to the team members, following up with new, experimental ways of improving the working relationship in teams and organizations.

Adam:

Flexibility boosts inclusiveness, which boosts productivity. And it’s important for leaders to be both great communicators and great listeners. And your third takeaway?

Marta Elvira:

So, my third conclusion would be this: rethinking how much we need time together versus individual time, or focused work versus collaborative, synchronous work. Obviously organizations were designed for a different time, a different era, and a different kind of output work. So, constant experimenting with letting voices in, and having ways of connecting and building relationships. But also, thinking critically as to whether these ways no longer apply, even if we only just invented some of these practices or put them in place five years ago. So, a constant feedback loop, in order to adapt to the new needs of the organization.

Adam:

Marta, thank you very much indeed.

Marta Elvira:

Thank you.

Adam:

Thank you to Professor Marta Elvira, Professor of Strategic Management and Managing People in Organizations at IESE Business School. And thank you, of course, for listening. Please do subscribe, share and let us know what you think of this podcast. Can you trust your people? Can you afford not to? Do you think differently to Christina and Marta? You can let us know by email. Please do. All details are in the podcast description. But, for now, goodbye.

The post Trust and productivity in a happy workplace. With Christina Janzer (Podcast) appeared first on IESE Standout.

Leading with joy (not fear). Productive magic with Florian Weiss. (Podcast)

IESE Standout — Tue, 07 Nov 2023 11:29:37 +0000

In 1890, Kate Sanborn described the entrepreneur’s journey as “1% inspiration, 99% perspiration”. Surely things are different today…

During this episode of the This is Real Leadership podcast series, Dr. Florian Weiss, CEO of Jameda (one of the largest software providers for healthcare) and Professor Sandra Sieber, Professor of Entrepreneurship at IESE Business School (one of the world’s best business schools) – ranked No.1 in the world for six years running by the Financial Times – discuss lessons learned in leadership.

Is building an organization that fosters personal growth the most important aspect of entrepreneurial leadership, and how do optimists survive?

This is Real leadership podcast: Every episode, a business leader shares human stories and hard truths from their career. And an expert turns those stories into lessons we can all learn.

In this episode, Florian and Sandra discuss:

How to leave space for productive magic
How to navigate paranoid optimism
How to learn from failure
Key leadership paradoxes

Listen to this podcast:

Listen & subscribe on:

Spotify Apple podcasts Amazon podcasts

Fore more content like this visit the Real Leadership website.

Podcast transcription:

Adam:

Hello, and welcome to This is Real Leadership. Where, every episode, a brilliant guest shares human stories and hard truths from their career as a business leader. And an expert turns those words into lessons we can all learn. I’m Adam Burns. I’ve been talking and writing about business leadership for over 25 years and I still have a lot to learn. Which is why, in this podcast, I’m also joined by that expert – a distinguished professor from IESE, one of the world’s best business schools – ranked number 1 in the world for six years running by the Financial Times. They’ll also be talking with our guest. And then, just with me. Offering their expert analysis of the conversation as I ask: what are the real leadership lessons here? What are the things that can have a positive impact on ourselves, the people around us, our companies and society as a whole? No buzzwords. Real people, real talk. Welcome Professor Sandra Sieber.

Sandra:

Hello Adam.

Adam:

Now, this episode, Sandra, is about mistakes made and lessons learned as an entrepreneur. You are IESE’s Professor of Entrepreneurship. What is the biggest lesson you’ve learned?

Sandra:

My biggest lesson learned, actually, is to never give up. So, even in a tough situation, find the positive. See a way out and, get yourself out of it. You have to put your heart into it. You have to put your soul into it and say, “I’m not giving up. I’m coming up with a plan, and I will make things better”. It’s my firm belief that you create the future that is ahead of you.

Adam:

Never give up. So, who is our guest? Dr. Florian Weiß is the CEO of Jameda, Germany’s biggest platform for patients and doctors, and one of the largest providers of software for the healthcare industry. Jameda started with a staff of 20. Today, it has more than 400. And Florian says building organizations that foster personal growth is probably the most important aspect of leadership.

We ask Florian about the moments in his career that have taught him the most. But we start with the real person behind the job title.

—

Florian:

It’s not an easy question, to define yourself. But, if I had to pick one characteristic, I would say I’m an optimist at heart.

Sandra:

And, I know you used to be a consultant before you became part of the entrepreneurial landscape. Was that the reason why you moved away from consultancy? Was there something missing there, something which you can find in these more uncertain and ambiguous spaces that exist when we’re creating new ventures?

Florian:

It certainly has to do with that. So, I’m fine with my consulting background. I owe a lot to my consulting career. But, if you do have a genuine interest in people, and if you want to be a leader, I would say consulting is probably not a good long-term choice as a career, because you don’t build organizations. Yes, you do have teams, but they’re rather small. And you have teams of people who are highly motivated, who will always be running all the way to the finish line, which is cool. But I think the really interesting thing about leadership is, how do you inspire people? How do you lead people who are maybe not that intrinsically motivated, who are not running by themselves, who you really have to lead into a position where they recognize their own potential? So, it’s an accumulation of things. But yes, this love for uncertainty does play a part.

Sandra:

And when you have this love for uncertainty, as you say, normally, and this is also what we find here at IESE when we teach, when we are helping people to develop new ventures, we normally also see that they’re motivated by a purpose, right? Which is not just motivating people, but creating something for the world. Something that is different and that has a purpose, which is something that I think you can only find when it’s your venture and when you really sort of… I don’t know. But it motivates people to wake up every morning and say, “Hey, I’m continuing to work on this, which is my thing, my contribution to the world.” How much is this external purpose, together with the internal purpose, this internal motivation you mentioned, important to you?

Florian:

It’s very important. And for me, there are certain dimensions to it. There’s the greater purpose of a company, which probably has to do with having an impact on society. Doing something which the world could benefit from, even if that sounds very big. But yes, that should be the aspiration. But I think there is also purpose in smaller terms. So, even if you don’t change the world every day, you do change the world of the people you work with. And that’s also a purpose. And yes, that definitely is important to me. And it does energize me every day.

Sandra:

And would you link purpose together with the fact that you were saying, “I am an optimist”? I think that it can be difficult, sometimes, in an uncertain environment, or in an environment where a lot of bad things are happening. How do you continue to be an optimist? I think that, in entrepreneurs, we very often see optimists. They are, sort of, convinced that, yes, I can do that. But sometimes it’s hard to motivate ourselves to maintain this optimism. Do you have any things that you do?

Florian:

Well, I think part of being an optimist is probably something in your genes. So, I would say you don’t have to do a lot of work to convince yourself to be an optimist at heart. I think that’s in your genes. But what is certainly true is that, in an entrepreneurial environment, if you start a venture, many things can go wrong every day. So, in a way, you have to be paranoid at the same time. Because if you’re an optimist and it leads you to be complacent or lazy, like, “Hey, things will turn out well, we don’t have to make any effort,” then this is also dangerous. So, my type of optimism in a company is what you could also describe as believing, every day, that we are going to win. And I think that’s very important; to make your team believe, every day, that we are going to win. We, as a company, have been in very difficult situations with other competitors that have a lot more funding. We needed to show that we are smarter, that we can develop better products with less people, that we can do better marketing with less money. And yes, sometimes people doubt that you’re going to be successful. I was always pretty harsh in that respect. So, I always told people something which might sound a bit hard, but I told them, “Hey, if you don’t think we’re going to win, I don’t want you on my team.”

Adam:

This is fascinating to me, because I love this line of paranoid optimism, number one. But I love this sense of, you know, “I am a genetic optimist. I just was born this way, I’m a genetic optimist”. But, obviously, part of leadership, part of business, and you sort of referenced it, is getting the best out of people. What happens in those moments of friction when a genetic optimist meets a genetic pessimist?

Florian:

So, that’s definitely a challenge, because it’s always easier if you surround yourself with people who are just like you. So, a natural environment would be, hey, they are all optimists. Everybody believes that we’re going to win. That’s the easy thing. You don’t really need to be an excellent leader if everybody thinks like you, acts like you, feels like you, and behaves like you. The question is, what if you encounter doubt, and maybe even fear? And I think the best way to deal with this is to fully embrace the other person’s perspective, and to have a genuine interest in, “why are you doubting our success?” Because there might be real, rational reasons behind them being concerned, behind not being optimistic. So, you have to deal with it. You have to put it on the table and spend some time. And yes, sometimes there are situations where you say, “Hey, you know what, maybe it makes sense that we part ways.” In a good way, because this should be a company where people are willing to dare, and where they would like to start a venture. Because, that’s maybe my ultimate thought on this; being an optimist at heart also has its drawbacks, right? So, if I didn’t have people who would correct me all the time, I wouldn’t steer the company in the right direction. You have to have somebody who says, are you sure this is going to work? Maybe we should focus a bit more on working on our weaknesses than just going with our strengths? It’s important to have these types of conversations.

—

Adam:

So, Florian is an optimist, motivated by purpose. And with, as Sandra put it, a love of uncertainty. That, then, is the real person.

The next part of our conversation is about real talk and, specifically, the lessons Florian learned from a communication failure. But it starts in a place of productive magic – somewhere Sandra calls ‘the Marvel zone’…

Florian:

So, I do have this KPI and fact-based analytical background, especially from my time in consulting. But what I found out, and actually, it took me some time to find this out on a personal level as well, is that, the more you understand the world, the less wonder and amazement and awe you have in your world. Because sometimes, everything is categorized, classified, everything is measured, and everything is actually in a rational system. And, at that moment, you lose the magic in your life. So, how does this compare to a company? I would say, yes, it’s the duty of any leader, first and foremost, to be strong in relation to his or her KPI. So, I have to know what’s going on in the company. But, if you imagine for yourself a kind of graph, with an x-axis and a y-axis. On the x-axis, you would have the amount of knowledge about the company, about your competition, about the market. And you start with zero, and you go very far to the right, and you have 100% knowledge. On the y-axis, you have the amount of amazement and wonder in your company. Then, of course, if you have zero knowledge, everybody’s just amazed. Everything is a miracle, because you cannot explain anything; you don’t want your company to be in that place. But, let me talk about the other extreme. You know, where everything can be calculated based on algorithms. Everything is set into KPIs. At that moment, you have zero amazement, zero wonder, zero awe, and, I think, zero identification. At that moment, nobody loves to work in your company, because it’s nothing special. There’s no secret, no magic. So, I gave this kind of zone a name, which I call productive magic. Where you do leave some room for the magic to happen. Not everything is explainable. Not everything will be clear to everybody, but it does inspire people. So yes, being an optimist also means leaving room for magic.

Sandra:

You call it productive magic; we call it the Marvel space.

Florian:

Perfect, love that.

Sandra:

And Marvel is now…I mean, I think it’s also a dream space where our kids go, to see superheroes and superwomen. And it gives us a little bit of that feeling that, hey, I also have a space in my company, not to become the superhero or the superwoman, but to be the one that explores things. Because, when we have ambiguity… And yes, okay, there’s always this paradox; I have my KPIs, but I’m also allowed to explore. And we call it ‘the Marvel space’, so that people can sort of become the superhero, or the superwoman. And probably fail afterwards. That’s fine. But, I think that you create this space. And you mentioned it before. I think, in your company, you’re always looking for people who also have this freedom. So that you can avoid the control trap that we are so used to, and give them a place of freedom.

Florian:

There are always contradictions; it’s always ambiguous. And I think you have to have the courage to live with those contradictions, or apparent contradictions.

Sandra:

We call it here, internally, and actually, there’s literature about this, it’s discovery-driven planning, or hypothesis-driven experimentation.

Florian:

Yes.

Sandra:

So, you want people to learn from the past, formulate their hypothesis, do the experiment, and then get the validation from it. So yes, you have an opinion, but the opinion helps to shape the hypothesis. It’s not that it’s set in stone and, okay, Florian is right in this case. It’s that you’re helping a new hypothesis to go forward because, with strategy, we’re not going to move far away because it’s so ambiguous. We have to change it all the time. And I always tell the executives, just think about hypotheses, because hypotheses are something you validate, or you throw them away.

Florian:

Right.

Sandra:

And it’s easier for us to just get rid of them and move forward. And this is, I think, what is in the paradoxes, when you say, hey, I know I should have an opinion. But then, I will have to learn to change my opinions fast. Because, if I don’t, in the end, I will steer everybody in the wrong direction, because we have just validated that something is not right here. So, I think that this is a very interesting aspect here. While you’re doing this, because you’re learning by doing, allowing people to fail, can you explain a little bit about what you believe is your biggest learning from one of your biggest failures while communicating?

Florian:

Yes, definitely. So, one year, we had our theme for the year, which was ‘We Dare’. And, during this year, we found out that this was a very good impulse, and it had a lot of positive effects. People were more daring, and embraced uncertainty. But we also felt, and we’ve seen it in the numbers, that we sometimes lost our discipline in terms of being professional. Because, if you just allow everybody to dare, it might be like, yeah, well, I haven’t done the math on it, but it is probably going to work. Let’s just dare. Well, Florian said we can dare, so let’s just do it. You always have to find the right balance. So, the next year, we had another motto, and we called it ‘One Level Up’. And, actually, it was not as inspirational. People didn’t love it as much as “We Dare”, but we thought it was important. But, what did we do wrong in terms of communication? So, one aspect of this ‘One Level Up’ was actually that we said, “You know what? We shouldn’t describe ourselves as a family anymore. We’re a team.” Because, as a team, you have to have the aspiration to always win. If you’re a sports team, you want to be the champion. So, you have to do everything you can to form a winning team, and everybody in this team has to know exactly what he or she has to do. So, you asked me, where did communication go wrong? Well, in that form, I loved that kickoff. I thought, “This is a great kickoff. Everybody will just love to do it.” And internally, in our internal feedback system, we got so much negative feedback. Everybody said, “Ah, okay, so this is not a family anymore. This is now just about numbers. Nobody cares about people.” So, now we are just another one of those companies we never wanted to be. And now, if everybody has to perform, everybody has to know exactly what to do, does this also mean that we should talk badly about our coworkers who are not performing? Like, will we, I don’t know, simply have a toxic company culture? Will we just stress out about everything? And it was not intended to be that, at all. But it occurred to me that you always have to be very careful about the messages you are sending, and about things that may be clear to you, but are not clear to everybody. So, then, we did a kickoff 2.0. We did it, like, two weeks afterwards. And we explained what people misunderstood, and we gave everybody the chance to speak up. So, on an anonymous basis, we could just say, “Hey, what did you hate about that? We thought it was great.” So, yes, this communication went wrong. But the good thing is, because we did it all over again, people then had the complete buy-in. They then understood what we meant, and we took all the elements out of it which were destructive, and which we didn’t want.

Sandra:

And I think that you show, here, that you’re humble enough to see, yes, the mistake is there. Let’s react quickly. And then, I don’t think we have talked about it, but I think it’s very important, and implicit in what you are explaining, that trust is there.

Adam:

And then, it’s curious, isn’t it, because your people clearly feel very valued, and there is a very human center of your business. And you talk about daring, and you talk about family. And then when you change that language, people are a little bit, you know… Their backs are up, and oh, this is becoming one of these other businesses that we talk about. It’s generic, etc., etc. Where do you sit on work-life balance? What is your communication like around that?

Florian:

I think that this is actually a misconception. I don’t like the term ‘work-life balance’ to begin with, because it suggests that those are two different things. So, I think about it in a different way. I think we often confuse work with activity, or simply, occupation. So, what do I mean? People tend to be stressed out, and maybe even feel burnout, when they do a lot of things but they don’t see the bigger picture behind it. They don’t see that it’s connected to the purpose. They don’t see that they have an actual impact on the company’s success, on the greater good, on what the company’s trying to achieve. And, don’t get me wrong, I’m not just talking about high value things. Like, some strategic guys who think about the long-term strategy, that they are valuable. No, every job in the company is valuable. If you cannot specifically, precisely identify and name the value that somebody creates, this person shouldn’t do what he or she is doing. Because this, for me, is the main source of burnout, and of not feeling valued, not feeling appreciated, not feeling seen. So, there’s a lot of debate. And also, in our company, I have this with our shareholders: do you build a performance organization, or do you build a people organization? And I try to respond with, I build both. It’s a people and a performance organization. We can do both. But there’s this misconception that, if you want to be nice, you have to sacrifice KPIs. So, on the one hand, there’s this concept of a top-down, very demanding company which is only looking at financial KPIs. And there’s the other extreme, of a company which is caring and nurturing and building up people and looking for personal growth. I think financial results are always the result of personal growth. So, if you invest in people, if you show them that their work actually matters, and that it has a direct impact on what we are trying to achieve, then I would say there is not as much debate about work-life balance.

—

Adam:

So, real leadership is about accepting that you have made a mistake, learning from that mistake, and quickly finding the opportunity to make good. Which, in Florian’s case, needed active and engaged communication. And, as Sandra said, you have to be humble to really make that work.

But if that maybe feels a little straightforward, the final part of our conversation is anything but. Before I speak with Sandra about her lessons from Florian, here are the two of them discussing the paradoxes of leadership…

Sandra:

What I’m seeing, Florian, is that, obviously, you operate in an environment that is high in ambiguity, and that forces you to change. What I’m seeing is that it creates a leadership style that is largely about dealing with paradoxes. Can we just see if you can come up with – this is sort of a challenge here – the five paradoxes that you think it is most important to manage when you want to succeed, in the future as well, with what you’re doing today?

Florian:

I don’t know if I can come up with five, but maybe I’ll start with something I said…

Sandra:

Well, let’s try it, okay?

Florian:

Yeah. I’ll start with the contradictions I named earlier, as a starting point, and I’ll probably come up with some more. So, one is staying focused, but wide open at the same time. It’s only when you’re wide open that you can have your antenna up for, where’s this market going to? What is happening in my organization? What might be some questions we should ask ourselves now, even if they only become relevant in three years? So, how do you handle that? Being focused, being in this current moment to see what’s going on, and being present. And at the same time wide open. It’s also what I said before; from my perspective, you have to let a company breathe. If you over-control things, in the end, you will have a team of people who don’t feel fulfilled at work. That’s when you tend to create burnout. Like, if you want to control everything. So, yes, you have to let a company breathe. But this doesn’t mean that you have to let go of all the control. No. It seems to be a contradiction, but, I think, it doesn’t mean you don’t care, or you’re not involved anymore. I think, if you have a great company culture, the information you need will always find its way to you. So, what do I mean? Yes, I could call everybody every day and say, where are your KPIs? What were you doing yesterday? I think this is critical, have you thought about it? And yes, that’s always a part of the job you have as a leader. But I also tend to believe that it’s a healthy organization if you trust in people and processes. So, I don’t have to be paranoid all the time. Yes, sometimes you have to. But sometimes, hey, you know what, if this person hasn’t called me today, things are going well; I can trust them. What else? I think it’s… So, you have to learn from your mistakes. That’s very important. But don’t fall into the trap of just rehearsing the past all the time. Also, kind of, live in the current moment. Forget about it. Yes, this was not good. So, what now? That’s also very important. And, yeah, what else? I think there’s also a very strong misconception, and I was confronted with this a lot with friends, family, also colleagues, shareholders, there is this misconception of, if people like you, you cannot be a good leader. Because it has the underlying hypothesis of, you have to be demanding. And once you’re demanding, people don’t like you. And I think this is simply wrong. That’s a contradiction. I don’t believe in it at all. You can be very demanding, because actually, people want to be challenged. I think you cannot be demanding and, at the same time, create an environment where people are not allowed to perform. So, I want this from you, but if, at the same time, I don’t give you the tools, the systems, the autonomy, the power to decide, then this is broken. But I would say that everybody, well, maybe not everybody, but a lot of people can like you, and you can still be a very demanding leader. You can still put a lot of emphasis on challenging people, on creating a high-performance environment, on only having room for the best people. These things can go together. Maybe that’s another example. That probably wasn’t five, but I don’t want to talk too much so…

Sandra:

Actually, you’ve done exactly five.

Florian:

Okay.

Sandra:

So, you’ve given us…I will summarize them here. You said you need to be focused and wide open, one. Controlling and breathing, two. Paranoid and giving trust and freedom, three. Creating the learning environment, but also the earning environment, four. And then, finally, you want to be the likeable and tough leader. And I think, Florian, you’ve given us, here, a lesson on leadership in ambiguity, with mistakes, but then moving on, being optimistic. It has been fantastic to have a conversation with you.

Florian:

Thank you very much.

Adam:

Thank you.

—

Adam:

So, Sandra, it’s time for your analysis. We promised real people, real talk and real business lessons you can use. What did you learn? What do you take away from Florian?

Sandra:

First, what I saw is that Florian talks about real people, and what you see is a real guy. He’s an optimistic leader, one that actually believes in this sentence that he used: “We are going to win”. Not just as a blind believer, but as a believer that then instills the purpose of his company in the rest of the people. Who always sees the potential, and works with the paranoia. Because, as he says, sometimes it’s an obsession. But then he combines it with a smile, and tries to be this, sort of, non-complacent leader who’s able to make mistakes, to find the workarounds, to fall and then to stand up again. Going with his purpose, and saying, “We are going to win”. How can you do that? It’s with this particular leadership style that I think he brought here, into our conversation, where he was saying, look, I understand that we need to – and this is the sort of real talk that he had – there’s a certain way I talk in moments of crisis, when we’re in turmoil, when I have to take tough decisions and when I cannot just listen to everybody. But I have to move on, and then I communicate that back. And then, he has these other moments in which he’s saying, no, no, I really need to get everybody on board, open up the communication to everybody, understanding that I want to give them freedom, avoiding what he called the control trap. And understanding that he can only create the right spaces for everybody to start taking these brave and bold decisions. When he creates these spaces of openness and, sort of, I think that he was showing us that he has this inner child. He was almost afraid of bringing his inner child into the conversation, but it’s the inner child that, sort of, spurs our curiosity. And we need this curiosity to find the secrets, the new moments, and then get into this space of productive magic, as he said. To find these marvelous moments in which we can work towards something new. And then we got into what real leadership actually is. And, for him, I think that real leadership is about creating this productive magic, where people are in a tough environment, but a very joyful one at the same time. So, they could really be in this paradoxical environment, because he was managing it. And I really learned from him that, it’s like, how can you be likeable and tough at the same time and manage all these paradoxes? I think that’s special in the entrepreneurial environment, and when companies are small, and also when companies are scaled. And then, even the big corporations, when they start having to become more innovative and play in these bigger spaces. These are, sort of, the leadership lessons that I think that all of us can get from Florian.

—

Adam:

Thank you Professor Sandra Sieber, Professor of Entrepreneurship at IESE Business School. And thank you, of course, for listening. Please do subscribe, share and let us know what you think of our podcast. Can you use these lessons? Do you think differently to Sandra or Florian? What would you like us to talk about in future episodes? Please send us an email, let us know your thoughts. All details are in the podcast description. But, for now, goodbye.

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